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  • #61
    Originally posted by Michele View Post
    See? It wasn't that difficult. I told you that you could get around to acknowledging you were wrong.




    No. Read more carefully. I never concluded anything of the sort. I did conclude that when you are malnourished or starving, running into waist-high Ocean waves with a load is hard. Drawing a bow is hard.

    You don't need to take my word for this. Create for yourself a number of physical exercise tests, and take down performance notes every time you perform them. Eat just 1,200 calories a day for eight months, repeating the same exercises every month. Then come back and we'll discuss your declining performance.
    Oh, make sure to take integrators. The Japanese were suffering from beriberi and other malnutrition-linked diseases, for lack of vitamins etc. We will see you much much much leaner, but we don't want you to fall ill, do we.
    I agree, absolutely with your comment.

    Let me ask you this hypothetical, say you were in the same position as the Japanese and you are sick becuase of malnutritian, but your Island nation is about to be invaded and your cultural belief has you convinced that your Emperor is a living god, and you have from birth accept laying down your life for the Emperor without question, in fact dying in battle will release you to join your ancestors, this is indoctrinated in you from birth, would you still crawl out of your sickbed and fight?

    Would you find the energy from within to take up arms against the invader, if you can take out one or two of the invaders before being killed, would it from a cultural standpoint be worth it?

    Also would you, not follow the orders of a living god, even it meant ultimate sacrifice?

    I would in all cases, i would crawl out of my sickbed and even carried to my aircraft, by the grace of the Emperor i will fly my aircraft into the guts of an American troop transport hopefully taking 10,000 troops with me, then once my duty is over i will ascend to heaven and rejoin my ancestors, praising the Emperor.

    Hopefully you can see at least that side of it.

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    • #62
      That is exactly the point. People can be made to believe anything with all their heart, given enough time and energy. You only need to look at Okinawa to see how effective their indoctrination was. That point alone is why invading Japan would have been a nightmare.
      "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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      • #63
        Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
        That is exactly the point. People can be made to believe anything with all their heart, given enough time and energy. You only need to look at Okinawa to see how effective their indoctrination was. That point alone is why invading Japan would have been a nightmare.
        Don't forget that the Okanawans do not consider themselves to be Japanese and in an entirely different ethnic group. Think how much harder the "real Japanese" would have fought on the four home Islands.
        Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

        Prayers.

        BoRG

        http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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        • #64
          Exactly.
          "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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          • #65
            Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
            Exactly.
            Did the Okinawans actually fight for Okinawa, or did they merely join in the mass suicides?

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            • #66
              Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
              Did the Okinawans actually fight for Okinawa, or did they merely join in the mass suicides?
              Who know's.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                Did the Okinawans actually fight for Okinawa, or did they merely join in the mass suicides?
                The Wikipedia article on Okinawa does a decent job of summarizing the situation of the civilians.

                From the page:
                Thirty thousand of the Okinawan civilians killed had been drafted or impressed by the Japanese army and are often counted as combat deaths.
                Many of the prisoners were native Okinawans who had been pressed into service shortly before the battle and were less imbued with the Imperial Japanese Army's no-surrender doctrine.
                In its history of the war, the Okinawa Prefectural Peace Memorial Museum[41] presents Okinawa as being caught in the fighting between America and Japan. During the 1945 battle, the Japanese Army showed indifference to Okinawa's defense and safety, and the Japanese soldiers used civilians as human shields against the Americans. Japanese military confiscated food from the Okinawans and executed those who hid it, leading to a mass starvation among the population, and forced civilians out of their shelters. Japanese soldiers also killed about 1,000 people who spoke in the Okinawan language in order to suppress spying
                The fate of the Okinawan civilians is a source of controversy in Japan up to the present day.

                Compulsory Mass Suicide, the Battle of Okinawa, and Japan's Textbook Controversy

                Historians battle over Okinawa WW2 mass suicides

                Okinawa Suicides and Japan's Army: Burying the Truth?

                1945 suicide order still a trauma on Okinawa

                A bright spot from an otherwise tragic event:
                Defiant soldier saved lives of hundreds of civilians during Okinawa battle

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                  Did the Okinawans actually fight for Okinawa, or did they merely join in the mass suicides?
                  The people of Okinawa claim greater heritage from China than from Japan. It was a tributary of China and at one time Okinawan officals were Fujian Chinese sent by The Ming at the request of the Okinawans.

                  The Okinawans were noted by those Chinese and later the European explorers to be extremely hospitable. When they were invaded by the Japanese in 1609, the Ryuku King ordered his people not to fight, declaring life itself was the most precious treasure. When Japan closed itself to the outside world (minus the Dutch) Okinawa and Nagasaki provided the only places of contact they had with the outside world. Okinawa was especially useful because China only traded with tributaries, and Okinawa was still paying China tribute...............so Japan got to deal through Okinawa all the trade that was controlled by the China........the superpower of that time. And guess what...........now that China is regaining her lost glory and power, the Okinawans are beginning to push for secession from Japan.

                  There was no love lost between Okinawa and Japan. First, weapons were banned to Okinawans, providing the inspiration of creating KARATE. And then Han was forbidden and to brainwash the population, every single education dept official came straight out of Japan.

                  Don't seem like the Okinawan people share the views of life and death as the Japanese.
                  Last edited by Salinator; 18 Oct 13, 20:09.
                  Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                  Prayers.

                  BoRG

                  http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post
                    The Wikipedia article on Okinawa does a decent job of summarizing the situation of the civilians.

                    From the page:






                    The fate of the Okinawan civilians is a source of controversy in Japan up to the present day.

                    Compulsory Mass Suicide, the Battle of Okinawa, and Japan's Textbook Controversy

                    Historians battle over Okinawa WW2 mass suicides

                    Okinawa Suicides and Japan's Army: Burying the Truth?

                    1945 suicide order still a trauma on Okinawa

                    A bright spot from an otherwise tragic event:
                    Defiant soldier saved lives of hundreds of civilians during Okinawa battle
                    Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                    The people of Okinawa claim greater heritage from China than from Japan. It was a tributary of China and at one time Okinawan officals were Fujian Chinese sent by The Ming at the request of the Okinawans.

                    The Okinawans were noted by those Chinese and later the European explorers to be extremely hospitable. When they were invaded by the Japanese in 1609, the Ryuku King order his people not to fight, declaring life itself was the most precious treasure. When Japan closed itself to the outside world (minus the Dutch) Okinawa and Nagasaki provided the only place of contacts they had with the outside world. Okinawa was especially useful because China only traded with tributaries, and Okinawa was still paying China tribute...............so they got to deal through Okinawa all the trade that was controlled by the China........the superpower of that time. And guess what...........now that China is regaining her lost glory and power, the Okinawans are beginning to push for secession fro Japan.

                    There was no love lost between Okinawa and Japan. First, weapons were banned to Okinawans, providing the inspiration of creating KARATE. And then Han was forbidden and to brainwash the population, every single education dept official came straight out of Japan.

                    Don't seem like the Okinawan people share the views of life and death as the Japanese.
                    So the point that comes across is that frisco17 is a bit confused as to what the actual situation was on Okinawa, and we really have no clear idea as to how the Japanese civilians would have behaved had the home islands been invaded.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                      So the point that comes across is that frisco17 is a bit confused as to what the actual situation was on Okinawa, and we really have no clear idea as to how the Japanese civilians would have behaved had the home islands been invaded.
                      I would agree that drawing a direct comparison between the behavior of the Okinawans and the possible behavior of the Japanese civilians would be unwise, given their different cultural backgrounds and the difference in how the Japanese armed forces and government treated and saw the two groups.

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