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A-bomb on Germany where?

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  • A-bomb on Germany where?

    This is a take-off from another post that morphed into a great series of posts.
    A search found one Thread started that assumed the bomb development schedule continued on track but the War in Europe went beyond April '45.

    My question is: if the bomb was operational and in place for deployment say 1-1-45? What do you think should be the prime target? Any support for your opinion would be great, but if you wish to just name a target, that's fine too.
    (If you wish I'd move the date for a better conversation, I'm fine with that also.
    My Avatar: Ivan W. Henderson Gunner/navigator B-25-26. 117 combat missions. Both Theaters. 11 confirmed kills. DSC.

  • #2
    Berlin I guess...

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    • #3
      Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
      Berlin I guess...
      Thanks for the response.
      That would seem to be the obvious answer, and yet, except for the firebombing, we avoided Tokyo due to political concerns. Would political concerns about post-War plans eliminate the complete demolition of the German capital eliminate that target?
      My Avatar: Ivan W. Henderson Gunner/navigator B-25-26. 117 combat missions. Both Theaters. 11 confirmed kills. DSC.

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      • #4
        The choice is obvious and that is Munich, that's where the Nazi Party started.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
          The choice is obvious and that is Munich, that's where the Nazi Party started.
          While Munich held some small military importance, is it safe to say your use would be more of a punitive nature?
          My Avatar: Ivan W. Henderson Gunner/navigator B-25-26. 117 combat missions. Both Theaters. 11 confirmed kills. DSC.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by holly6 View Post
            While Munich held some small military importance, is it safe to say your use would be more of a punitive nature?
            Yes and it will be regarded as payback for Coventry.

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            • #7
              Make it sometime after The Battle Of The Bulge when the Germans are on the run going back deeper and deeper into Germany.

              Drop the bomb at some mid-point where there's a maximum amount of retreating German troops and the next city of any decent size along the way. The city's residents get to spread the witness word far ahead.

              This would serve killing the maximum fighting troops possible, and out in the relative open and not killing a good number of civilians in heavily populated areas. It would also place a few things on the minds of the high command.

              1. They've up a lot of our troops and they won't be coming to help us.

              2. We can guess and sweat for ourselves if they have more bombs like that waiting for Munich and Berlin and find out the hard way.

              3. If they do have another one, or two, whatever it's going to be that or a shitload of verrry pissed off Russians. Both will kill us stone cold dead. Do we kill him now and be done with it, or else await the inevitable of two very unpleasant ends?
              Youthful Exuberance Is No Match For Old Age And Treachery.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by HMS Jr. View Post
                Make it sometime after The Battle Of The Bulge when the Germans are on the run going back deeper and deeper into Germany.

                Drop the bomb at some mid-point where there's a maximum amount of retreating German troops and the next city of any decent size along the way. The city's residents get to spread the witness word far ahead.

                This would serve killing the maximum fighting troops possible, and out in the relative open and not killing a good number of civilians in heavily populated areas. It would also place a few things on the minds of the high command.

                1. They've up a lot of our troops and they won't be coming to help us.

                2. We can guess and sweat for ourselves if they have more bombs like that waiting for Munich and Berlin and find out the hard way.

                3. If they do have another one, or two, whatever it's going to be that or a shitload of verrry pissed off Russians. Both will kill us stone cold dead. Do we kill him now and be done with it, or else await the inevitable of two very unpleasant ends?
                That isn't bad of an idea, gotta give you a rep for that one

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                  That isn't bad of an idea, gotta give you a rep for that one
                  Thank you, good sir.
                  Youthful Exuberance Is No Match For Old Age And Treachery.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HMS Jr. View Post
                    Make it sometime after The Battle Of The Bulge when the Germans are on the run going back deeper and deeper into Germany.

                    Drop the bomb at some mid-point where there's a maximum amount of retreating German troops and the next city of any decent size along the way. The city's residents get to spread the witness word far ahead.

                    This would serve killing the maximum fighting troops possible, and out in the relative open and not killing a good number of civilians in heavily populated areas. It would also place a few things on the minds of the high command.

                    1. They've up a lot of our troops and they won't be coming to help us.

                    2. We can guess and sweat for ourselves if they have more bombs like that waiting for Munich and Berlin and find out the hard way.

                    3. If they do have another one, or two, whatever it's going to be that or a shitload of verrry pissed off Russians. Both will kill us stone cold dead. Do we kill him now and be done with it, or else await the inevitable of two very unpleasant ends?
                    I almost moved this back to the Falaise Gap just for grins, but I wanted to make sure the Ardennes attack was addressed to a point.
                    Have you a suggestion on where to drop it. Maximum troop retreat outside of a small, medium or large city to spread the word?
                    My Avatar: Ivan W. Henderson Gunner/navigator B-25-26. 117 combat missions. Both Theaters. 11 confirmed kills. DSC.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by holly6 View Post
                      I almost moved this back to the Falaise Gap just for grins, but I wanted to make sure the Ardennes attack was addressed to a point.
                      Have you a suggestion on where to drop it. Maximum troop retreat outside of a small, medium or large city to spread the word?
                      Not that familiar with the terrain, 'holly. You pick where and see if you can determine place by these provisions, if possible.

                      Kill the maximum of German soldiers.

                      As few civilians as possible.

                      Leave the civilians the safest and shortest route to any city of decent size.

                      Make sure to drive the Germans by aircraft bombing, strafing, rocketing, whatever, and not by your own troops whenever possible.

                      Drop one to the rear of the Germans to the east as close as possible w/o killing too many Russians for a two-fer. Killing Germans, and giving the Russians a nice WTF surprise.

                      And yes on the last part of city, civilians, and word spreading. This gives you a Genghis Khan, Caesar, and Attila Effect. You're being more practical than Mr. Sweet Humanitarian. You want people showing up and literally scaring the living **** out of however they tell with the listeners looking at them very, very closely so they can join the run and tell those ahead of them when they meet and get those to tell the story etc., etc., etc. The longer and further the story goes and spreads, the more shitty and terrifying it's going to become.
                      Last edited by HMS Jr.; 25 Sep 13, 22:22.
                      Youthful Exuberance Is No Match For Old Age And Treachery.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by HMS Jr. View Post
                        Not that familiar with the terrain, 'holly. You pick where and see if you can determine place by these provisions, if possible.

                        Kill the maximum of German soldiers.

                        As few civilians as possible.

                        Leave the civilians the safest and shortest route to any city of decent size.

                        Make sure to drive the Germans by aircraft bombing, strafing, rocketing, whatever, and not by your own troops whenever possible.

                        Drop one to the rear of the Germans to the east as close as possible w/o killing too many Russians for a two-fer. Killing Germans, and giving the Russians a nice WTF surprise.

                        And yes on the last part of city, civilians, and word spreading. This gives you a Genghis Khan, Caesar, and Attila Effect. You're being more practical that humanitarian. You want people showing up and literally scaring the living **** out of however they tell with the listeners looking at them very, very closely so they can join the run and tell those ahead of them when they meet and get those to tell the story etc., etc., etc. The longer and further the story goes and spreads, the more shitty and terrifying it's going to become.
                        Masterful post. It's going to send me to the books. I was worried this post would come back on my lazy self to deliver. I'm going to plead for help from those much more conversant than I to pull my butt out of the swamp. Any body have a response for this?
                        I'm not going to dodge this, but I have to get some sleep. If none of you lurkers with the knowledge help me out, I'll post a response tomorrow, but I will have nasty thoughts about you for quite a while.
                        My Avatar: Ivan W. Henderson Gunner/navigator B-25-26. 117 combat missions. Both Theaters. 11 confirmed kills. DSC.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by holly6 View Post
                          Masterful post. It's going to send me to the books. I was worried this post would come back on my lazy self to deliver. I'm going to plead for help from those much more conversant than I to pull my butt out of the swamp. Any body have a response for this?
                          I'm not going to dodge this, but I have to get some sleep. If none of you lurkers with the knowledge help me out, I'll post a response tomorrow, but I will have nasty thoughts about you for quite a while.

                          Good night, and good luck. It's for you and anyone else that wants a piece of it.
                          Youthful Exuberance Is No Match For Old Age And Treachery.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by HMS Jr. View Post
                            Not that familiar with the terrain, 'holly. You pick where and see if you can determine place by these provisions, if possible.

                            Kill the maximum of German soldiers.

                            As few civilians as possible.

                            Leave the civilians the safest and shortest route to any city of decent size.

                            Make sure to drive the Germans by aircraft bombing, strafing, rocketing, whatever, and not by your own troops whenever possible.

                            Drop one to the rear of the Germans to the east as close as possible w/o killing too many Russians for a two-fer. Killing Germans, and giving the Russians a nice WTF surprise.

                            And yes on the last part of city, civilians, and word spreading. This gives you a Genghis Khan, Caesar, and Attila Effect. You're being more practical than Mr. Sweet Humanitarian. You want people showing up and literally scaring the living **** out of however they tell with the listeners looking at them very, very closely so they can join the run and tell those ahead of them when they meet and get those to tell the story etc., etc., etc. The longer and further the story goes and spreads, the more shitty and terrifying it's going to become.
                            All of which seems to point to the so-called Wolf's Lair- Wolfsschanze- complex in East Prussia, Hitler's HQ in late 1944, as the ideal target.
                            Last edited by BELGRAVE; 26 Sep 13, 02:10.
                            "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                            Samuel Johnson.

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                            • #15
                              I don't think the bomb is going to be dropped on a concentration of military targets in the open along some LOC. Not if the number of bombs is comparable to the one available when the first one was dropped in real history.

                              First thing, those are fleeting targets. Planning the bombing takes time, which builds upon the delay in relaying the intelligence. You end up risking to hit a half empty place. Now, naturally some LOCs would always be important to the frontlines adjacent to their railheads; so you have at least reasonable chances to hit a meaningful target. But the problem is that you have two bombs, with a third one nearly ready. You can't risk wasting one. You don't want reasonable chances; you want certainty.

                              Which means a standing target.

                              Add that the nukes are the ultimate strategic bombing device in the Allied decision makers' minds. They tried using strategic bombers tactically/operationally, and they had mixed results.

                              Add that friendly troops would obviously need to move along that LOC later on. The decision makers wouldn't be too choosy about exposing the soldiers to radiation if that was necessary. But doing it to spare German civilians? At a time when they were still making every effort to achieve firestorms in German cities? No.

                              This whittles down the list of targets to cities. It's only a matter of which cities. Remember, the planners were also interested in seeing how actually damaging those nukes would turn out to be, so they chose relaitively unscathed cities as targets.

                              If one really really insists on not bombing a big population center, then I have one last option: bombing a town and its adjoining synth fuel plant. By January 1945, I'd suggest Leuna; putting together all people involved in the production and all the military protecting it from air raids and all the personnel of repair/maintenance teams, it's some 70,000 people packed close together, plus the town. The side bonus is hitting the fuel and rubber production. You also affect POWs and slaves there, but that happened in Japan, too.

                              Naturally it's deep in Germany, so maybe that even if the planners choose for this kind of target, they'll opt for something in the Ruhr, but that is coming with more civilian population around it.
                              Michele

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