Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Open Forum - The Napoleonic Wars vers 2.0

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by The Purist View Post
    Correct. If a power is willing to take the hit they can sue for peace. This is why I have always recommended keeping surrender terms current. In case a power does surrender, you want one of two things - hurt them badly to help your allies, or go with milder conditional terms which must be accepted by the loser.

    A power can always refuse to accept unconditional terms

    Tsar is right,... France chose terms that have severely weakened Britain and Turkey.
    and one point to always consider is is todays enemy needed to help you help you latter either as an ally or distraction for someone else. It part of the reason in previous tries to get Spain to make piece I went easy on Spain.

    Now I just out to crush him and take all his toys.


    In this case France did the smart thing for itself. England can no longer force it to tie up resources protecting le its western flank and everything can be used against its enemies to the East.

    Meanwhile France now has control of the Seas which allows it to force Austria to garrison it coast line while Nap marches Vienna. Allowing France to do to its enemies what England has been doing to it. For Example.


    Also to restate this was actually my plan from the moment I invaded spain. Just with the broken troop loaning mechanic I held off as long as I could. If I had done it three turns ago the political ramification would of not of been as bad.

    Except I think England goes fiasco no matter what if it surrenders to France. It a mechanic to ensure that England stays at war with France to ensure that other countries have a chance and limit a English/France alliance or team work.
    T
    Last edited by craven; 01 Oct 15, 11:06.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tsar View Post
      The most Nappy can do is take 3 of your provinces. He can not take your fleet but he could sink 2 of them as he did to the Brits. Trust me he helped you as well as he could with the terms that he took.
      actually he did nt. He should of wiped out the English corps to eliminate any threat to Spain. Now I still able to beat on Spain to my hearts content.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by craven View Post
        ...
        Except I think England goes fiasco no matter what if it surrenders to France. It a mechanic to ensure that England stays at war with France to ensure that other countries have a chance and limit a English/France alliance or team work.
        T
        Yes, you did, and Spain is still in the Dominant zone.

        I need to ask for a day or two more to get some questions answered and to unravel the new situation.

        And Ulrih was as surprised as anyone else, so maybe going Kamakaze isn't the answer here.
        "Why is the Rum gone?"

        -Captain Jack

        Comment


        • The current situation is the first big political earthquake in the game. I can understand the need to work out a new plan with your allies.
          The Purist

          Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by The Purist View Post
            Correct. If a power is willing to take the hit they can sue for peace. This is why I have always recommended keeping surrender terms current. In case a power does surrender, you want one of two things - hurt them badly to help your allies, or go with milder conditional terms which must be accepted by the loser.

            A power can always refuse to accept unconditional terms
            So a losing side does in fact force the winning side to accept its surrender ?

            How can you ever fight a war to conclusion if at any time the defender can sue for peace and gain a forced ceasefire for 18 months ?
            Last edited by Snowygerry; 02 Oct 15, 03:08.
            High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
              So a losing side does in fact force the winning side to accept its surrender ?

              How can you ever fight a war to conclusion if at any time the defender can sue for peace and gain a forced ceasefire for 18 months ?
              I would think that sueing for peace would represent a conclusion. It might not mean that you could beat the defender into the ground and wipe your boots on them but you would still have won.
              Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

              Comment


              • Not if the surrendering party can just continue the war.

                It offers them an advantage in fact since it allows them to take the biggest army opposing them out of action.

                This was explained quite well some time ago in a number posts in regard to surrendering strategies, but I had assumed their would be at least the opportunity to refuse a surrender and continue the war.



                Realistically a British surrender, especially after the Russian one, would mean a resounding victory for Napoleon, since he has now established himself as emperor.

                Quite unbelievable Britain has an alternative victory condition and France hasn't.

                What reason is there still for Napoleon to continue the war until 1815 ?
                High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                Comment


                • Conditional surrender as I understood should be discussed and both sides should agree. Unconditional is really painful and kicks state out of the pretenders to win if it`s done in such situation like Britain and Turkey had - take a look, they`re both now in fiasco zone, lost money and manpower, all conquered provinces revolted (thus again lost money and manpower), naval power is also lost. So basically it`s probably expected that uncond. surrender is emergency choice.
                  I don`t know what craven expected from this - both countries are mess now and at least for Turkey there are probably no more chance to win this. Same would go for the Brits if they wouldn`t have this "if no one wins Britain does" rule.
                  Anyway it was unexpected decision and it could be that this will not be so good for Brits as craven expects. Who said that Spain can`t do the same to Britain? Spain will not fall into fiasco or even in instability zone by this but this will leave Turkey alone against Spain with Spanish superiority on the sea which is key factor for war in Africa.
                  Or Spain could be successful in the upcoming battles against British/Ottoman force where Brits can contribute only with limited forces (2 Guard, 2 infantry and 5 cav) and then it`s Spain and France ahead of all the other countries.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ulrih View Post
                    Conditional surrender as I understood should be discussed and both sides should agree. Unconditional is really painful and kicks state out of the pretenders to win if it`s done in such situation like Britain and Turkey had - take a look, they`re both now in fiasco zone, lost money and manpower, all conquered provinces revolted (thus again lost money and manpower), naval power is also lost. So basically it`s probably expected that uncond. surrender is emergency choice.
                    Except for the most important "Make peace with Spain" condition which could cost them dearly.

                    I don`t know what craven expected from this - both countries are mess now and at least for Turkey there are probably no more chance to win this. Same would go for the Brits if they wouldn`t have this "if no one wins Britain does" rule.
                    At least there should be huge outcry on the banks of Westminster to replace the current PM

                    Anyway it was unexpected decision and it could be that this will not be so good for Brits as craven expects. Who said that Spain can`t do the same to Britain? Spain will not fall into fiasco or even in instability zone by this but this will leave Turkey alone against Spain with Spanish superiority on the sea which is key factor for war in Africa.
                    Or Spain could be successful in the upcoming battles against British/Ottoman force where Brits can contribute only with limited forces (2 Guard, 2 infantry and 5 cav) and then it`s Spain and France ahead of all the other countries.
                    I readily admit did not make a comparative study of the remaining strength of Turkey, Spain, UK, ...

                    Could be.
                    High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                    Comment


                    • One more factor involved with peace terms be they conditional or unconditional.

                      After the war is concluded the two sides must evacuate each other's territory within three months. If they are still in the former enemy's territory at the start of the fourth month they are repatriated to the nearest depot or supply source outside the enemy territory during the diplomacy phase.

                      In the current situation France must pull out of Turkish territory within three months. If Britain or Turkey had troops in any French possessions they would also have to evacuate within three months.

                      This was noted in the last diplomacy phase results
                      The Purist

                      Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                        Except for the most important "Make peace with Spain" condition which could cost them dearly.



                        At least there should be huge outcry on the banks of Westminster to replace the current PM



                        I readily admit did not make a comparative study of the remaining strength of Turkey, Spain, UK, ...

                        Could be.
                        you have to have one country go unconditional and the other limited to ensure what I just did does not occur. Or both on conditional

                        btw five corps to three corps I like my odds and I have the morale advantage and numbers advantage. And I move before Spain Life is good

                        I been considering this since Spain failed to surrender when they should of in Africa.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                          Not if the surrendering party can just continue the war.

                          It offers them an advantage in fact since it allows them to take the biggest army opposing them out of action.

                          This was explained quite well some time ago in a number posts in regard to surrendering strategies, but I had assumed their would be at least the opportunity to refuse a surrender and continue the war.
                          If you sue for peace in the 18th C you were going to offered terms. If you do not like them, you do not accept them. However, if you offer terms, which you must, and they are accepted, you must make peace.

                          This assumes unconditional terms.

                          To offset the surrender strategy described above and just used by craven there are the loaned corps rules. You may officially remove a power from the war but that power can still loan its troops to its ally so it can remain in the fight. This forces the litigant to think long and hard about implementing the surrender strategy as it may not be favourable as one thinks to take the major political hit while trying to split a coalition.

                          In our case it is up to France to decide whether to remain in the fight to support Spain or not. As we have seen, corps and fleets on loan do not always show up for battle so there are risks. On the other hand, if the loaned units do show up, the results may not be as favourable as the litigant first thought.

                          In the case of conditional terms the power considering surrender can block one type of term - "remove no force", "no extended peace", "no removal of a leader" and so on. This reduces the choices of the winner from three terms to two. By setting terms at 'conditional' the power is willing to let the
                          the litigant off lightly by accepting weaker terms but gains the benefit that if the litigant sues for peace it must accept the terms set by the winner.

                          So, in summary, a litigant can refuse unconditional terms and fight on but cannot refuse conditional terms if it sues for peace. So a litigant must exercise caution.
                          The Purist

                          Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                          Comment


                          • August 1st, 1807-

                            The celebrations of the great victory at Saragossa are barely over when the announcement falls like a thunderclap over Madrid.
                            By diplomatic treachery and unfathomable sacrifice, the anglo-Turkish alliance as removed France from the war by giving in to pre-stated demands... a most unexpected development. There is outrage in the court of King Charles, until the French embassy explains that international law has tied Napoleon's hands. If France is ever to be believed, yet alone listened to ever again, the acceptance of their own proposals is a done deal.
                            Spain itself was about to modify its own peace terms, they were simply too late to be gifted in a similar way.

                            And now, the panic begins.
                            True, Wellington is gone, but rumor has it that Napoleon is halfway to Paris now, and the troops left behind are just standing around looking a bit wale-eyed.
                            Will Spain have to surrender?
                            The odds say so.

                            The next morning, King Charles enters his throne room with the Commander of the Guards Corps in tow, and takes his seat in full regalia. He stares at his retainers, advisors and Generals, and raps his scepter on the arm of his throne 3 times. He then holds the symbol of his riegn high over head and says clearly; "From my cold, dead hands-"
                            His next words are drowned out by sudden applause.

                            "We have defeated the enemy on our own soil without the aid of the Generalship of the esteemed Emperor, we can finish the job ourselves. The despised invader will die here, they will never be allowed to leave. People of Spain; give the enemy nothing but six feet of Spanish soil!"


                            Wherever British and Turkish troops are, they see peasants digging holes in the ground, smiling and speculating among themselves about how many bodies it will take to fill the Mass Graves they are preparing on the King's orders.



                            Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                            ....
                            In our case it is up to France to decide whether to remain in the fight to support Spain or not. As we have seen, corps and fleets on loan do not always show up for battle so there are risks. On the other hand, if the loaned units do show up, the results may not be as favourable as the litigant first thought.
                            Now here is the really terrifying part...
                            I was shocked to see a whole Russian squadron cease to be, I'm sure we all were. If glitches like that keep happening then we could loose enough stuff in one shot to make up for what the UK lost in the surrender, and this whole year becomes a waste of time.

                            I am saying this publicly because everyone needs to know these answers-
                            -what are, as a rough %, the chance that an allied unit could go "poof" in a given circumstance?
                            -how quickly can units un-couple? Is there any chance of loosing them or seeing them do something random once Corps from different nations are separated from each other?
                            - does being out of supply aggravate any of this?
                            "Why is the Rum gone?"

                            -Captain Jack

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                              Now here is the really terrifying part...
                              I was shocked to see a whole Russian squadron cease to be, I'm sure we all were. If glitches like that keep happening then we could loose enough stuff in one shot to make up for what the UK lost in the surrender, and this whole year becomes a waste of time.

                              I am saying this publicly because everyone needs to know these answers-
                              -what are, as a rough %, the chance that an allied unit could go "poof" in a given circumstance?
                              -how quickly can units un-couple? Is there any chance of loosing them or seeing them do something random once Corps from different nations are separated from each other?
                              - does being out of supply aggravate any of this?
                              Another question, which won’t be answered until it is my turn to deploy re-enforcements, is will those ships be available to put back on the board or are they gone for good?
                              Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

                              Comment


                              • I believe you will have to wait for the Econ phase and purchase the fleet hq. That hq is currently in your force pool including the 16H. I hope that simply deploying the fleet in a Russian port in October will return the 16 heavies as well.
                                The Purist

                                Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                                Comment

                                Latest Topics

                                Collapse

                                Working...
                                X