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No Japanese attack on U.S. no Declaration of War by Germany does U.S. Enter WWII?

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  • No Japanese attack on U.S. no Declaration of War by Germany does U.S. Enter WWII?

    Straight forward simple question.

    Japan does not directly attack any U.S. forces or territory. Germany does not declare war on the U.S.

    At what point if ever does the U.S. become directly involved in World War II?
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
    Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

  • #2
    Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post
    Straight forward simple question.

    Japan does not directly attack any U.S. forces or territory. Germany does not declare war on the U.S.

    At what point if ever does the U.S. become directly involved in World War II?
    It was only a matter of time. In the Pacific, by 7 December, 1941, there was already a defacto alliance worked out between the DEI, US and the British Commonwealth powers. The first aggressive move by Japan against any of them would have probably brought a quick declaration of war by the US. FDR really wanted to get into the war with Germany much moreso and he probably only needed a few more German U-boat attacks upon US warships to bring it to pass in Congress.
    "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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    • #3
      Direct involvement? Maybe 31 October 1941 when the USS DD Reuben James was sunk escorting convoy HX30 from Newfoundland to Iceland. The US escorted convoy was attacked by German submarines. There were other earlier submarine/escort encounters. When the Bismarck made its famous sortie US military pilots were well established flying as "instructors" aboard US made aircraft out of British military airfields in the UK.

      Less Direct that would have led down the slippery slope.

      US military personnel were involved in preparing improvements to the Persian supply route to the USSR. More US personnel were on their way. The possibllity of sending US combat units there to replace British garrisons, much like Iceland was considered for some future date.

      US had been conducting a dialogue with the French government with the hope of finding ways to reduce cooperation with the Axis.

      Lend Lease for the USSR planned for 1942 was large. The Germans already had a fair idea of how much material was arriving & enroute. Ditto for Britain.

      US was actively interfering with German diplomats and unofficial agents in Latin America and was busy 'nuetralizing' pro Axis leaders i the Latin American governments.

      That scratches the surface. The "Warhawks" of the US were working hard at getting directly into the war, & Hitler had no deep seated objections to accomodating them.

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      • #4
        http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/Gallup/

        The polls show support for Great Britain and the knowledge that we would "have to do something" about the Axis, both getting stronger as time went by. Add to this the Congressional Record, and the Op-Ed pages and news stories of the day. Combined this has given me the opinion that FDR could have put a declaration of war against Germany through Congress by the end of the 2nd Quarter, 1942, latest. If the "short of war" system had produced more combat losses for the USN, this may have happened sooner. I keep in mind that it didn't take a Pearl Harbor-type attack to get us into WWI. And that for most Americans this new war's aggressors were much more obvious than in WWI.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
          .


          US was actively interfering with German diplomats and unofficial agents in Latin America and was busy 'nuetralizing' pro Axis leaders in the Latin American governments.
          .
          That telling of that story would make for a truly facinating book.
          "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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          • #6
            Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
            That telling of that story would make for a truly facinating book.
            It's been done. http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/FRUS/
            Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
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            The best place in the world to "work".

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            • #7
              Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
              Thanks for sharing!.
              "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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              • #8
                Hitler was itching for a "reason" (don't know why, never stopped him before) and another Reuben James type incident (even made up) and FDR could do whatever he wanted. I fancy contemplating the US in a one ocean war where the Japanese leave us alone and we throw almost everything at the Germans. Hmmm...
                In Vino Veritas

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by dongar1 View Post
                  Hitler was itching for a "reason" (don't know why, never stopped him before) and another Reuben James type incident (even made up) and FDR could do whatever he wanted. I fancy contemplating the US in a one ocean war where the Japanese leave us alone and we throw almost everything at the Germans. Hmmm...
                  Smaller Navy, more armor and airplanes. Marines land in a thrust aimed at Hamburg after D-Day. Arctic convoys are better covered and have more ships carrying more material.
                  Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
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                  The best place in the world to "work".

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                  • #10
                    Yes, eventually another mistake by German subs allows a cause belli situation for the Americans and now they have an excuse to get involved, and with Japan a non issue, the USA can throw everything at Germany.

                    Germany if i guess still goes on and invades the Soviet Union then the Germans will be defeated much more quickly, say by about mid 1944.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                      Yes, eventually another mistake by German subs allows a cause belli situation for the Americans and now they have an excuse to get involved, and with Japan a non issue, the USA can throw everything at Germany.

                      Germany if i guess still goes on and invades the Soviet Union then the Germans will be defeated much more quickly, say by about mid 1944.
                      With almost the entire USN destroyer force in the Atlantic the U-boats would have a tough time.
                      Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                      Hyperwar, Whats New
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                      The best place in the world to "work".

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
                        Smaller Navy, more armor and airplanes. Marines land in a thrust aimed at Hamburg after D-Day. Arctic convoys are better covered and have more ships carrying more material.
                        Hamburg is well inland. Any attack will take time with naval units exposed to air attack plus large minefields which the USN didn't have to deal with in the PTO. Once in Hamburg what do the Marines do. Hamburg is a very large city. Hard to clear and hard to defend. Bad idea imo. Germany would have to be attacked like an onion. One layer at a time. Lots of tears but any spear to the heart can be for gotten.
                        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                          Hamburg is well inland. Any attack will take time with naval units exposed to air attack plus large minefields which the USN didn't have to deal with in the PTO. Once in Hamburg what do the Marines do. Hamburg is a very large city. Hard to clear and hard to defend. Bad idea imo. Germany would have to be attacked like an onion. One layer at a time. Lots of tears but any spear to the heart can be for gotten.
                          I think it is a bad idea too, but to niggle over a few technical points...

                          The USN did deal with a fair number of mines in the Mediterranean. the Italians had planted then widely & the RN a few as well. Minefields were cleared from the approach to the Salerno and Anzio beaches to name two.

                          The Germans made ernest air attacks against the Scillian & Salerno landings. While they won some spectacular tactical victorys the Allies brought along enough airpower to with the battle or campaign. If the Allies cant provide sufficient airpower they'd not give it a try. If I were directed to plan such a operations I'd first take a look at using the marines to seize one or more of the barrier islands off the Netherlands/Jutland coast. If any of those are suitable then forward airfields can be built there, along with other useful accoutrements and the main landing executed with a bit of local air support ect...

                          What I dont like about landing in that region is the numerous shoals, the North Sea weather, the boggy ground inland, and narrow dry corridors between the marshlands and wide estuary like rivers. The road maps of 1944 for that region did not impress me either. We had the Frisian landing discussion a year or two ago. i recall it did not go well for the proponent.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                            .. Germans will be defeated much more quickly, say by about mid 1944.
                            Darn, we wont be able to use our atomic devices

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                              Hamburg is well inland. Any attack will take time with naval units exposed to air attack plus large minefields which the USN didn't have to deal with in the PTO. Once in Hamburg what do the Marines do. Hamburg is a very large city. Hard to clear and hard to defend. Bad idea imo. Germany would have to be attacked like an onion. One layer at a time. Lots of tears but any spear to the heart can be for gotten.
                              Minesweeping is a job for minesweepers. As for the air, where was it at Normandy? And Hamburg was as suggestion, not a big deal if it's aimed elsewhere. The mission of the landing would be to get more Germans away from France. After the Marines secure the beachhead they could turn it over to Monty, then withdraw and feint in other areas to keep the Germans nervous.
                              Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                              Hyperwar, Whats New
                              World War II Resources
                              The best place in the world to "work".

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