Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

WW2 can Britian defeat the Axis alone.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • WW2 can Britian defeat the Axis alone.

    Part I

    The title says it all.

    A brief background.

    1939 to 1941

    The Pacific Theatre, Japan decides that her war in China is not worth the embargo place upon it by the USA and in the end Japanese forces withdraw north. Nationalist China recognises Japanese territorial claims of Northern China, Manchuria and Korea.

    As a result of the Sino-Japanese Treaty the USA lifts all sanctions on the Japanese and by June 1941 the Japanese return to full trading.

    The European Theatre

    1939 to 1941

    September 1939 The Germans invade Poland and in response the French and British Governments declare war on Germany. April 1940 Germany invades Norway and after attempt by French and British forces the Germans win. May 1940 German forces invade the west and in 6 weeks Germany extracts an unconditional surrender of France, Belgium and the Netherlands, however Hitler asks Il Duce not to get involved in hostilities, he has plans for Italy at a later date.

    July 1940 The BoB plays out and by late September 1940 the Germans are defeated. November 1940 Hitler begins to look east. March 1941, after plans are drawn up and consultation with planners Hitler decides to cancel any invasion as too costly. April 1941 Hitler meets with Il Duce to discuss the Italians and it is decided that the italians at this point in time put off their plan of invading Greece to concentrate on Britian.

    May 1941 German forces begin moving to the south of Italy. June 1941 German and Italian forces surprise the British by quickly capturing Malta, within 24hrs the tiny island is captured, also during this time the Italians go on the defensive as the british Army attacks the Italians by crossing into Libya, within a week the well prepared italians force a stalemate.

    To be continued.
    Last edited by Roddoss72; 20 Dec 12, 23:25.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
    The title says it all.

    A brief background.

    The Pacific Theatre, Japan decides that her war in China is not worth the embargo place upon it by the USA and in the end Japanese forces withdraw north. Nationalist China recognises Japanese territorial claims of Northern China, Manchuria and Korea.

    As a result of the Sino-Japanese Treaty
    Basically there would be no war because Japan at the time wanted to spend it resources getting caught up technologically. The problem was the Hawks always felt one more push one more attack would knock China out.

    Comment


    • #3
      If ...

      Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
      Part I

      The title says it all.

      A brief background.

      1939 to 1941

      The Pacific Theatre, Japan decides that her war in China is not worth the embargo place upon it by the USA and in the end Japanese forces withdraw north. Nationalist China recognises Japanese territorial claims of Northern China, Manchuria and Korea.

      As a result of the Sino-Japanese Treaty the USA lifts all sanctions on the Japanese and by June 1941 the Japanese return to full trading.

      The European Theatre

      1939 to 1941

      September 1939 The Germans invade Poland and in response the French and British Governments declare war on Germany. April 1940 Germany invades Norway and after attempt by French and British forces the Germans win. May 1940 German forces invade the west and in 6 weeks Germany extracts an unconditional surrender of France, Belgium and the Netherlands, however Hitler asks Il Duce not to get involved in hostilities, he has plans for Italy at a later date.

      July 1940 The BoB plays out and by late September 1940 the Germans are defeated. November 1940 Hitler begins to look east. March 1941, after plans are drawn up and consultation with planners Hitler decides to cancel any invasion as too costly. April 1941 Hitler meets with Il Duce to discuss the Italians and it is decided that the italians at this point in time put off their plan of invading Greece to concentrate on Britian.

      May 1941 German forces begin moving to the south of Italy. June 1941 German and Italian forces surprise the British by quickly capturing Malta, within 24hrs the tiny island is captured, also during this time the Italians go on the defensive as the british Army attacks the Italians by crossing into Libya, within a week the well prepared italians force a stalemate.

      To be continued.
      ... France signs an unconditional surrender, then the French Navy trump card isn't played, there are no negotiations as to its obligations and/or retention. The Fleet sails to Oran, much of the French Army escapes to Britain, Algeria and Tunisia, the French Colonies have no legitmate French Government left in France to remain loyal to, instead they fight on with a much enlarged Free French Force, their goal to liberate Metropolitan France, the US supplies assistance i.e. Lend Lease to the French Gov't in Exile in London as well. A combined French/British Fleet relieves Malta (if deemed necessary at this point), handing the RM a sound defeat, which retreats to mainland Italy, the Allies control the Central Med. Wavell moves in to Cyrenaica, while Weygand attacks Tripolitania from Tunisia, Cunningham et. al. role up the Italians in East Africa. Italy, beaten back to the north shore of the Med. is soon knocked out of the war.
      Last edited by Marmat; 21 Dec 12, 10:18.
      "I am Groot"
      - Groot

      Comment


      • #4
        And what the Germans as sucessful as tgey were Otl were not able to get a unconditional surrender out of France how tge hell are they doing that npw

        Comment


        • #5
          A closer to realty scenario would be everything pre December 7th 1941 as was but that Japan settles for China and doesn't attack the US or Britain.

          Without war against Japan, Britain can concentrate all Empire and Commonwealth resources on Europe.

          This means Britain doesn't lose Malaya or access to Far East oil. Australian and Indian troops are available to go to Europe. Britain has undisputed control of the seas.
          PoW and Repulse are not sunk so available to reinforce Mediterranean Fleet or to cover convoys to Russia.

          So Britain would be able to keep Russia in the war through the Arctic convoys and gradually build up forces for an invasion of French north Africa and Sicily in late 1942 then 1943 respectively as happened in reality.
          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

          Comment


          • #6
            And then that embargo literally kills Japan

            Comment


            • #7
              Somebody forgot about the part where the UK goes financially broke in 1941 and the US floats them millions of dollars in war loans before beginning Lend Lease to them.
              "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

              Comment


              • #8
                A little-known item;

                The US demand that Japan withdraw from China was so poorly worded that the Japanese interpreted it to include withdrawal from Manchuria.
                Something that the sender did not intend and that the receiver would never comply with.
                "Why is the Rum gone?"

                -Captain Jack

                Comment


                • #9
                  I know the answer to this one

                  No

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Marmat View Post
                    ... France signs an unconditional surrender, then the French Navy trump card isn't played, there are no negotiations as to its obligations and/or retention. The Fleet sails to Oran, much of the French Army escapes to Britain, Algeria and Tunisia, the French Colonies have no legitmate French Government left in France to remain loyal to, instead they fight on with a much enlarged Free French Force, their goal to liberate Metropolitan France, the US supplies assistance i.e. Lend Lease to the French Gov't in Exile in London as well. A combined French/British Fleet relieves Malta (if deemed necessary at this point), handing the RM a sound defeat, which retreats to mainland Italy, the Allies control the Central Med. Wavell moves in to Cyrenaica, while Weygand attacks Tripolitania from Tunisia, Cunningham et. al. role up the Italians in East Africa. Italy, beaten back to the north shore of the Med. is soon knocked out of the war.
                    No, the Germans infact have this covered in my scenario, what the Germans do is what they do best and that is with threats.

                    Hitler announces that as part of the unconditional surrender any French Ship that tries to sail to either Britain or join up with any "Free French Forces" the sailors families are taken into protected custody and thus held as hostages, any ship that flees, the sailors know their whole family will be executed.

                    This stops any ship sailing, no sailor will flee with the full knowledge that his action will cause the elimination of his entire family.

                    So in that the French Fleet stays where it is, in France or Oran or MSK.

                    Also you have only read part I of the story.

                    Ok another part of your response will now be dealt with.

                    September 1941 Churchill sails to the USA to have a meeting with FDR and address a joint sitting of Congress/Senate. Churchill gives one of the most impassioned speechs ever heard in that hallowed chamber, and Churchill again gives the same speech to FDR, in it he pleads with FDR and the USA to become involved in the war against Germany.

                    Two weeks after Churchill's speech the US Congress refuses to get directly involved in the war of Europe. The majority of Congress states that it was Britian and France who as it turned out were the ones who declared war on Germany, not the other way around. Congress also announces that the USA is not a charity, it will help Britian on a Cash and Carry system. The USA Congress defeats a Lend Lease Bill.

                    Britain is told in no uncertain terms, how much is she prepared to bankrupt herself in prosecuting a war with Germany.

                    Germany and USA still enjoys full diplomatic releationship into 1942.

                    So the USA has refused to either send millitary help and no Lend Lease.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      And Hitler keeps sinking those ships bringing America in America was rearming force after France Japan not jumping in means all resources go to taking Europe
                      Game over

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lionhearti View Post
                        And Hitler keeps sinking those ships bringing America in America was rearming force after France Japan not jumping in means all resources go to taking Europe
                        Game over
                        Game over?

                        In this ATL Germany is not involved in the Soviet Union or the Balkans. Game on...

                        Germany is not hamstrung by oil or manpower constraints, so how is the US involved a "game over".

                        As to the original question, no the UK cannot defeat Germany by itself. The UK can only win a protracted war if the Soviets get involved, but the same could be said for Germany if they managed to get the Soviets to move into Persia and threaten the British position in the Middle East.
                        "Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics"
                        -Omar Bradley
                        "Not everyone who studies logistics is a professional logistician, and there is no way to understand when you don't know what you don't know."
                        -Anonymous US Army logistician

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The Empire would still be buying from the USA and the Uboats would need to sink US ships to keep up the blockade. Exactly the same scenario as WW1 so that would pretty much ensure that the US could not stand on the side lines in the war against fascism completely.

                          Germany could not allow US ships to carry war material to the US and the US defence industry was making far too much money selling weapons to he BEC (British Empire and Commonwealth) to give up that market.

                          There was a frequently stated opinion in the Empire in 1940 that the war could last 10 years. If the Russians did not finish the job the BEC would have fought on almost indefinately until the inheritantly unstable Nazi regime went through some form of crisis and either collapsed internally, like the Kaiser regime or had some form of coup.
                          What would Occam say?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                            A closer to realty scenario would be everything pre December 7th 1941 as was but that Japan settles for China and doesn't attack the US or Britain.

                            Without war against Japan, Britain can concentrate all Empire and Commonwealth resources on Europe.

                            This means Britain doesn't lose Malaya or access to Far East oil. Australian and Indian troops are available to go to Europe. Britain has undisputed control of the seas.
                            PoW and Repulse are not sunk so available to reinforce Mediterranean Fleet or to cover convoys to Russia.

                            So Britain would be able to keep Russia in the war through the Arctic convoys and gradually build up forces for an invasion of French north Africa and Sicily in late 1942 then 1943 respectively as happened in reality.
                            What would Britain be shipping to Russia? Lend-Lease? In what ships? U Boots were sinking ships at a higher rate than the UK could keep up with. The UK just didn't have the production capacity to do it all while still out fitting all of the CW and their own navy at the same time. The Arctic convoys got the headlines but most of the supplies to Russia went across the Pacific and through Iran.
                            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                            you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I know that now somebody will come with the Tooze story...
                              "Give me 100 000 croatian soldiers and I will conqure all world" - Napoleon Bonaparte

                              Soldiers are coming and leaving while war will never end.

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X