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  • Arab countries turn to West for Help

    If the arabs specially Egyptians and Syrians had turned to the West ( France and Britain) for most of their military hardware what would have been the outcome of the Arab Isreali wars ?]
    IMHO it woud not have made a difference

  • #2
    HUGE difference.
    Somewhat less equipment, but of much greater utility.

    Recall that the Egyptians were no slouches, they were the first in the world to deploy ATGM teams effectively in the field. The first major warship in the world to be sunk by a missile was an Israeli Destroyer sunk by an Egyptian missile. And their AA rockets scored notable success in 1973.

    Better stuff could have made a world of difference.
    "Why is the Rum gone?"

    -Captain Jack

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    • #3
      It was the inability of the egyptians use to the soviet equipment effectively which led their demise.

      1-testimony of various israeli generals ( anthony cordesman of CISS quotes them in his book)
      2-Dismal performance of Egyptians in the Gulf war
      3-Poor state of Egyptian F-16 and F-4 Units in the 80s and 90s

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      • #4
        they were the first in the world to deploy ATGM teams effectively in the field.
        And still were heavily defeated when they deviated from the soviet tactics
        The first major warship in the world to be sunk by a missile was an Israeli Destroyer sunk by an Egyptian missile
        .
        Indian navy scored even more success in the 1971 war, common factor was the soviet missile boats
        And their AA rockets scored notable success in 1973.
        So did the vietnamese and when they left their SAM umbrella they suffered heavily.

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        • #5
          Recall that the Egyptians were no slouches,
          They are unfortunately, no because of any racial reasons but cultural and training, and btw egyptians did not rely solely on soviets they followed their own mix of tactics blending british with soviet and their own locally developed strategies

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          • #6
            Better stuff could have made a world of difference.
            in some cases like the poor quality of soviet AAM K-13 but that was hardly a factor as egyptians were so regularly outflown and outclassed.

            In Bekea valley poor equipment was also a factor but syrians had mostly mig-21mf and mig-23ms against F-15 and F-16 of IDAF.Their airplanes were a generation behind the isrealis, plus syrians were outnumbered and flying blind in combat.

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            • #7
              IF you have all the answers why did you ask the question in the first place?
              "Ask not what your country can do for you"

              Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

              you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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              • #8
                ^ I dont have "all the answers" sharing my opinions isnt that what everyone does here

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                • #9
                  It must be remembered that Iraqi and pakistani pilots ( yea i know they are not arabs) with the same equipment fared quite well in combat.Iraqis held their own against iranians ( flying mig-23 and mig-25 they scored several F-4 )

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                  • #10
                    The outcome would have been exactly the same, Israel defeating all enemies. However, it most likely would have been more difficult if the Arabs had the better equipment.

                    But, would Syria and Egypt be allowed to go to war with Israel if they had these contracts with Britain and France? I don't think that would have mattered, but it's another question to throw into the subject.
                    The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the Second only applies to muskets?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hida Akechi View Post
                      The outcome would have been exactly the same, Israel defeating all enemies. However, it most likely would have been more difficult if the Arabs had the better equipment.

                      But, would Syria and Egypt be allowed to go to war with Israel if they had these contracts with Britain and France? I don't think that would have mattered, but it's another question to throw into the subject.
                      Good question ! The soviets could not dictate much of the foreign policy of Egypt maybe over syria they had more control.Another problem is affordibility, even if equiopment one-on-one was better than soviet the imbalance in numbers would not have been so drastic.Remember both Egypt and Syria are relatively poor arab states.Unless the saudis and iraqis are willingly to sponser big deals for their arab brethern

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                        IF you have all the answers why did you ask the question in the first place?
                        I was wondering that too, as well as using 4 different posts to respond to just one of mine. Makes it a PITA to answer all that... unless you know a few tricks.

                        Originally posted by nastle View Post
                        They are unfortunately, no because of any racial reasons but cultural and training, and btw egyptians did not rely solely on soviets they followed their own mix of tactics blending british with soviet and their own locally developed strategies
                        So, being blind followers would have been better?
                        I don't think so. Given local terrain and conditions, a certain amount of adaptability would have been a good thing, IMHO. Their problem was that they were working from the worst of two bad books and learned the wrong lessons.

                        Originally posted by nastle View Post
                        It must be remembered that Iraqi and pakistani pilots ( yea i know they are not arabs) with the same equipment fared quite well in combat.Iraqis held their own against iranians ( flying mig-23 and mig-25 they scored several F-4 )
                        It should also be remembered that the Iranian Air Force had already been gutted by a Stalin-style purge by the Mullahs. And, even so, when Iraq wanted to hit Tehran, they used Scuds. The Iranians went barn-storming over Baghdad with those old F-4s on several occasions.
                        Everyone thought that Iraq would walk all over Iran at the time, but that didn't happen, now did it?

                        Originally posted by nastle View Post
                        And still were heavily defeated when they deviated from the soviet tactics
                        .Since Soviet tactics emphasis rapid and deep exploitation of local success, I'd have to say yes, in 1973.
                        But, then you say-

                        Originally posted by nastle View Post
                        So did the vietnamese and when they left their SAM umbrella they suffered heavily.
                        They would have HAD to leave that umbrella behind at some point, and should have that first night.
                        And speaking of 1973, the weapon that scored 60% of Isreali ground-air kills was the humble halftrack, armed with twin 20mm guns on the same turret that we used in WW2.
                        Everything wasn't a Wizard war.

                        Originally posted by nastle View Post
                        Indian navy scored even more success in the 1971 war, common factor was the soviet missile boats
                        Sure, but as I said, the Egyptians did it first, in 1967.

                        Originally posted by nastle View Post
                        It was the inability of the egyptians use to the soviet equipment effectively which led their demise.
                        Yup, I have heard this about the Iraqis in 1991, the Syrians in every war they ever fought, and on and on.
                        Sooner or later, I would think that someone would twig-on to the fact that the common denominator is the Soviet equipment in the first place.

                        Your not going to find a harsher critic of all things Arab here, I think that's an established fact.
                        But lets use some deductive reasoning here, and try to find the common thread in half a dozen widely separated nations.

                        I mean, sure, you COULD say that an over-riding cultural inferiority prevents the Arabs from fielding a modern army that is capable of something more than beating up their own citizens, but....
                        hmmm...
                        "Why is the Rum gone?"

                        -Captain Jack

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                        • #13
                          I was wondering that too, as well as using 4 different posts to respond to just one of mine. Makes it a PITA to answer all that... unless you know a few tricks.
                          My apologies Kamrade General !

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                          • #14
                            So, being blind followers would have been better?
                            I don't think so. Given local terrain and conditions, a certain amount of adaptability would have been a good thing, IMHO. Their problem was that they were working from the worst of two bad books and learned the wrong lessons.
                            Yes but what I was tring to say is that the failure of arabs does not neccesarily mean the failure of soviet tactical doctrines
                            It should also be remembered that the Iranian Air Force had already been gutted by a Stalin-style purge by the Mullahs. And, even so, when Iraq wanted to hit Tehran, they used Scuds. The Iranians went barn-storming over Baghdad with those old F-4s on several occasions.
                            Most of them came back as soon as the war started and iranians were flying most of their F-14s as well
                            Everyone thought that Iraq would walk all over Iran at the time, but that didn't happen, now did it?
                            I didnt , but in 1980-81 Iraqi AF was severely hampered by the aircrafts it had mig-21mf, few mig-23bn and mig-23ms.They were outclassed by iranians who had over 100 F-4 100 F-5 and atleast 40 F-14s operational

                            They would have HAD to leave that umbrella behind at some point, and should have that first night.
                            Or they could have exploited their local success built their defences and offered peace at a time when they had the upper hand.

                            Yup, I have heard this about the Iraqis in 1991, the Syrians in every war they ever fought, and on and on.
                            Sooner or later, I would think that someone would twig-on to the fact that the common denominator is the Soviet equipment in the first place.
                            It depends on how its employed, one on one the soviet equipment is DEFINATELY inferior to NATOs no one can question that, however the ease with which the arabs ( soviet armed) have been defeated in the arab isreali conflicts should not lead us to believe that soviet /WP forces would have collapsed in a similar way in any conflict with NATO.

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                            • #15
                              "IF you have all the answers why did you ask the question in the first place?"

                              It provokes thought and debate whether or not the question is real, rhetorical or unanswerable.
                              The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the Second only applies to muskets?

                              Comment

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