Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

XXX corp relieves Arnhem on schedule.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • XXX corp relieves Arnhem on schedule.

    Hi folk.
    I've had a thought in the back of my mind for a while now and am throwing it out there,make of it what you will

    Market Garden failed to accomplish all of its objectives for lots of reasons.
    That's not what this thread is about though.

    I want to know what would have happened if it had succeeded beyond the allies wildest dreams.
    Let's assume that the XI Airborne demanded drop zones closer to their objectives and against Leigh-Mallorys objections got them.
    Let's also assume that 9th and 10th SS remnants were not refitting in the immediate vicinity,after all it was pure chance that placed them there in the first place.
    The German 15th army is held up trying to get East from Antwerp as some would argue it ought to have been.
    What would have happened next and were the allies in a position to truly make the best of this hypothetical situation?
    Did they have the logistics and reserves neccessary to inject themselves into the Ruhr?
    Many,many questions
    I personally suspect that we didn't have enough resources to do justice to what could have been an extremely audacious victory and one that possibly may have poured water on the fires of the Montgomery haters out there.
    We all know why MG failed but what if it hadn't?

  • #2
    Ha,Roman numerals are definitely not my strong point,for XI read VI or even better, 6.

    Comment


    • #3
      Moved to Alternate Timelines.
      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

      Comment


      • #4
        ******it,wrong again

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by flash View Post
          ******it,wrong again
          You're a very new member, don't be so harsh with yourself.

          'What if' scenarios will usually be transferred to the Alternate Timelines sub-forum if posted in other areas.

          Your idea is an interesting one and should generate some good discussion. Please, do play on.
          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

          Comment


          • #6
            You're too kind sir.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by flash View Post
              ....
              What would have happened next and were the allies in a position to truly make the best of this hypothetical situation?
              Did they have the logistics and reserves neccessary to inject themselves into the Ruhr?
              No, not reach the Ruhr that autum. The Allies had far out run their supplies, & the bulk hard to transport items: fuel & artillery ammunition were those most needed. Large quantities of engineering materials and equipment had to be transported across France/Belgium as well to restore the rails, automotive roads, and canals. The Allies were 90 days ahead of schedule capturing Antwerp, and some six months ahead in reaching locations like Liege, Nancy, or the Vosges highlands & it took the transportation nearly that long to catch up.

              Having at least one bridgehead across the Rhine gives the Allies the advantage later in the winter and spring.

              Comment


              • #8
                Question remains: Could the bridgehead be held. The was only that famous one road leading up to it. Could enough supplies and reenforcements be brought up soon enough to counter German counterattacks or would the XXX Corp still find themselves a bridge to far and be force back, again across one bridge. What if the Germans cut the bridge with air attacks or other means?
                "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by flash View Post
                  We all know why MG failed but what if it hadn't?
                  Might be more worthwhile asking 'What would a perfect Market Garden look like?'

                  Market Garden as planned would have resulted in XXX Corps across the Rhine and up to the Issjel River IIRC, but with a supply chain stretching back to Normandy (until the Channel ports come on stream) and with VIII and XII Corps stretched across the Netherlands to protect the suuply chain ie Second British Army is so stretched out it cannot really attack elsewhere.

                  First Canadian Army is clearing the Channel ports, First US Army is stuck at Aachen, Third US Army is stuck at Metz, Ninth US Army is moving forward from Brest and the Anvil forces are not yet really in the picture yet.

                  Therefore to get an interesting scenario after a succesful Market Garden you need to change other things after the 10th September decision, not just things directly connected to the operation eg delay Market Garden by 1 to 2 days so that VIII and XII Corps attacks are made at the same time, replace Crerar with Simmonds so the Canadian Army moves faster, stop Patton, plan for a US Corps to either replace one of the British flanking Corps or attack out of the XXX Corps bridgehead etc

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by flash View Post
                    Hi folk.
                    I've had a thought in the back of my mind for a while now and am throwing it out there,make of it what you will

                    Market Garden failed to accomplish all of its objectives for lots of reasons.
                    That's not what this thread is about though.

                    I want to know what would have happened if it had succeeded beyond the allies wildest dreams.
                    Let's assume that the XI Airborne demanded drop zones closer to their objectives and against Leigh-Mallorys objections got them.
                    Let's also assume that 9th and 10th SS remnants were not refitting in the immediate vicinity,after all it was pure chance that placed them there in the first place.
                    The German 15th army is held up trying to get East from Antwerp as some would argue it ought to have been.
                    What would have happened next and were the allies in a position to truly make the best of this hypothetical situation?
                    Did they have the logistics and reserves neccessary to inject themselves into the Ruhr?
                    Many,many questions
                    I personally suspect that we didn't have enough resources to do justice to what could have been an extremely audacious victory and one that possibly may have poured water on the fires of the Montgomery haters out there.
                    We all know why MG failed but what if it hadn't?
                    Q: At what day does XXX arrive at Arnhem?
                    Note that from October onward the weather is going to play a increasingly substantial role.
                    The situation as was or the situation as preceived by the allies at the launch of MG. It makes quite a bit of a difference.
                    The Canadians, Antwerp, Zeeland and Von Zangen. About the Canadians I can forsee that it would be well nigh impossible to get them involved any earlier to do the suggeted opening of the Scheldt within the same time frame as MG.
                    Imho MG failed to take the prize, however the upshot was still a more favourable starting position to secure the left flank of the American armies
                    going for the Ruhr/Roer also by splitting the German forces into two Nord brabant could be taken far easier by working from East to West.
                    Compare this with a case where MG had not happend and the Germans had continuous access in the rear to be suppied/reinforced from the Heimat as the allied armies were moving from West to East across Brabant towards Germany. Now if the majority of the German 15. Armee had been force West ward out of Zeeland it would be immediately be available reinforcing the German units in Brabant.
                    In the real world, only smaller part of the 15. Armee ended up in Brabant. the bulk went on and escaped direction Rotterdam and was to return to Germany for refit.
                    Just a few considerations.
                    The alternative scenario is a beast, if played with the original resources.
                    To make it work you might want to to re-rig/jig.
                    However it does not get much easier taking into consideration real life German movements and dispositions.
                    It will be very interesting to see how audacious and all encompassing this could work out. Should you want to involve the American forces look at the situation between 16th Sept and 1st Oct around Arracourt and the situation in De Peel of the British and American Forces especially the movements of the German Panzer Brigardes in those areas.
                    In particular the German 107, 111. and 113. Panzer Brigades.
                    I would almost like to refer to The Butterfly effect.
                    Welcome to ACG and enjoy.

                    Ed.
                    The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I dont see why capturing a few bridges justifies risking so many paratroopers so far behind enemy lines.
                      In Sicily and Italy the allies built about 3,000 bridges, including a 340 m long one fast. Hell, if Julius Caesar built a bridge to cross the Rhine in 10 days, I think the allies could build 10 bridges in less time.

                      If he really wanted the bridges Monty could have learnt how the Germans coordinated tanks with planes in 1940 and used P-47 and Typhoons and dropped some paratroppers closer to him to wipe the AT guns blocking his tanks.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Draco View Post
                        I dont see why capturing a few bridges justifies risking so many paratroopers so far behind enemy lines.
                        Because:
                        1. Those 'few bridges' give access into the heart of Germany, crossing all the major barriers the Germans might use to delay the advance.
                        2. It was believed the Heer had not regrouped by this point, a successful drop would keep them on the run.
                        3. There were several very expensive and highly trained Airborne Divisions sitting around in the UK, political pressure dictated they needed to be used and, iirc, range restrictions limited the area of operations to Montgomery's sector.
                        4. The Allies had already used Airborne units to successfully seize bridges in France, so it seemed like a feasible option.

                        Hang on, aren't you normally accusing British-led forces of being far too cautious?

                        Originally posted by Draco View Post
                        In Sicily and Italy the allies built about 3,000 bridges, including a 340 m long one fast. Hell, if Julius Caesar built a bridge to cross the Rhine in 10 days, I think the allies could build 10 bridges in less time.
                        Why build one under fire when you can capture one intact from an opponent you believe to be disorganised and in no shape to fight?

                        Originally posted by Draco View Post
                        If he really wanted the bridges Monty could have learnt how the Germans coordinated tanks with planes in 1940 and used P-47 and Typhoons and dropped some paratroppers closer to him to wipe the AT guns blocking his tanks.
                        And let the Germans demolish the bridges at leisure?

                        Please elaborate on these proposed drops.
                        Diadochi Rising Wargame:
                        King Pairisades I of the Bosporan Kingdom

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Draco View Post
                          I dont see why capturing a few bridges justifies risking so many paratroopers so far behind enemy lines.
                          In Sicily and Italy the allies built about 3,000 bridges, including a 340 m long one fast. Hell, if Julius Caesar built a bridge to cross the Rhine in 10 days, I think the allies could build 10 bridges in less time.

                          If he really wanted the bridges Monty could have learnt how the Germans coordinated tanks with planes in 1940 and used P-47 and Typhoons and dropped some paratroppers closer to him to wipe the AT guns blocking his tanks.
                          Do look at how the Germans 'took' - 'many' - bridges in 1940.
                          You will be surprised about the how and the poor successful outcome.
                          I have to grant you one observation, that is probable of the greater value.
                          Yes, had paras been dropped closer to the bridges of Nijmegen and Arnhem, they might have taken the bridges on the 17th. The problem arises if the Germans used armour against them. Still wondering whether the area between Nijmegen and Arnhem could even be considered for small scale landing zones in view of the many, many orchards in this area in 1944.
                          About Old Jules, he could afford to build the bridge where he wanted.
                          The allies in 1944 did not have such luxeries.
                          On the big rivers in Holland. These are major fairways and are fast flowing, then there are the many canals and minor rivers/streams to contend with.
                          Many of which really still too wide for a 1944 type scissors type bridge such as carried by the Valentine Bridge Laying tank or the Churchill bridge layer.
                          Just for get about trying to use a Churchill SBG. One just has to resort to Bailey or similar constructions.
                          I think it fair to say that the density of waterways in Holland is just a tad higher than Italy. To get to Arnhem one has to cross the three larger rivers in Northern Europe. All over a stretch of some 32 kilometres.

                          The reason of using so many paratroopers in Market Garden was that they formed are ready reserve. It was considered that there was not enough infantry available for the operation. As alway it was counted that an air assault has some element of surprise.

                          Ed.
                          The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            For XXX Corps to relieve the British Paras at Arnhem, I am predicting that Monty would fall over dead from shock when he saw one of his plans worked the whole way through. The XXX Corps had to travel on top of Dikes on roads that silhouetted them beautifully. It was a German antitank gunner's dream. The Guard's Armor was a tired formation that had lost its elan. The 11th Armor might have worked better.

                            Pruitt
                            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              PLEASE,PLEASE,don't allow this thread to become yet another argument between Senor Draco and us.
                              I am genuineley interested in what may have happened.
                              Draco has his points, a lot of them are quite fantastic, but nevertheless he has his points.
                              Live and let live.

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X