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Asian vs. European Navies

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  • Asian vs. European Navies

    Whose combined navies would win the campaign? The battle?
    First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

  • #2
    Your question leaves more questions than answers.

    You have no time frame.
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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    • #3
      Geez, not one of 5 Ws answered...........who, what, when, where and why! There is no point to this OP.

      Dennis
      If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

      Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

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      • #4
        Is this a satirical thread or something? If so, it is too 'inside' for me.
        Кто там?
        Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
        Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

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        • #5
          Its just a general comparison. Sorry the time period is 1500-1800 the colonial era. It posted before I could finish the post and I didn't notice . Just throwing a comparison between the two at the time.
          First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

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          • #6
            Anyone seen Asian ships in Europe in that timeframe?

            Disclaimer: Turkey doesn't count

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            • #7
              Imjin war ships on both sides. Ummm junks mostly for the Chinese. I don't remember for the Ottoman's and Arabs but I think galleys and Dhows. Indias ships did pretty badly against the Portuguese.
              First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

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              • #8
                Having seen the refinement, I'm plumping for the Europeans - they had cannons in their boats, nobody else did.

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                • #9
                  Most likely (this is without looking it up) the Europeans. Their big two advantages are in the way cannon are handled aboard ship and it sailing ability.

                  The square rigged ship has a big advantage over a junk rig which is alot like a lanteen rig. The later cannot sail as close to the wind as a square sail. The junk / lanteen righ also cannot execute many of the maneuvers a square rig can.

                  On cannon, the European truck carriage allows run in and reloading inboard with relative ease. The Asians are still using a fixed carriage with slow reload times.

                  Since boarding is not a necessity things like the Korean "turtle ship" offer little or no advantage. If anything the extra weight put into decking over and iron clading the ship are just useless weight against a European vessel that is say, Race built like English frigates were in the earlier part of the period in question.

                  For example in single ship combat a square rigged ship can boxhaul a junk / lanteen rigged one. This means it can deliver a starboard broadside, then back down switch tack and deliver a port one in short order.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                    Having seen the refinement, I'm plumping for the Europeans - they had cannons in their boats, nobody else did.
                    You are kidding right? The Chinese had cannons on ships before Europeans.
                    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                    Prayers.

                    BoRG

                    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                      You are kidding right? The Chinese had cannons on ships before Europeans.
                      Really? The Europeans had cannon before the Chinese, I'd be surprised if they didn't put them on ships before them too.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                        Really? The Europeans had cannon before the Chinese, I'd be surprised if they didn't put them on ships before them too.
                        Yes. Really. Go look up cannon.
                        Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                        Prayers.

                        BoRG

                        http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                          Yes. Really. Go look up cannon.
                          I have. What I will not do is assume that any gunpower weapon is a cannon.

                          "The smoothbore cannon, first appearing in the early 14th century in Europe

                          "The fundamental inventions of gunpowder and cannon had been made by 1300, but the sources are rare, difficult to interpret, hard to date, and often contradictory. The best guess is that gunpowder followed quickly after saltpetre was discovered (that is, a process for its purification was developed) by Chinese alchemists around AD 900 and introduced to Europe via trade routes and travellers around AD 1225, and that cannon were invented in southern Europe just before AD 1300.

                          "The Egyptian Mamluks defeated the Mongols (the first such definitive defeat in the West) at Ain Jalut in Palestine in 1260, where "hand cannons" were reported to have been used. These were pyrotechnic devices used to scare horses, not projectile weapons. Such devices were very similar to those used in China, and the pyrotechnic mixtures used are reported in Arabic sources. This shows how the pyrotechnic uses of nitrates preceded their use in projectile weapons, and that care must be used in interpreting early accounts.

                          "The name cannon comes from the essential part, the cylindrical bore or barrel, probably through the Latin canna, for a reed, with the Italian augmentative suffix -one, making cannone, and joining the vernacular in the 14th century. Indeed, the earliest Chinese and Arabic firearms used bamboo tubes, cannae, as barrels, and shot arrows. The word canon was used in Latin for a gun (1326 in Italy, 1418 in England), but this is just a Latinized cannone, assimilated to an existing Latin word."
                          http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/tech/cannon.htm

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                          • #14
                            After 1700's I would give the edge to the Europeans.

                            There were a handful of naval battles that occured between the Europeans and Chinese forces in the 1500's.

                            The first and second battles of Tamao (1521 and 1522), saw the defeat of the Portuguese navy by the Ming fleet.

                            Then there was the seige of Fort Zeelandia by the Qing rebel Konxinga.

                            In that time period, the Chinese had better ships but the Europeans had better cannons. The best Chinese cannons were either bought from the Europeans or Chinese copies of them. Even though the Chinese ships were superior to their European counterparts, no CHinese ships were in European waters while Dutch, Spanish, and Portugese were in Asian waters.

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                            • #15
                              Actually thats false. The Europeans arguably had better fleets since the early 1500s crushing Egyptian, Indian, Ottoman, and even Chinese fleets. By the late 1600s the Asians had no chance. European cannon were almost always superior and Galleons and Carracks were better than junke and Dhows.
                              First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

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