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Kemal Ataturk killed in 1917. Only a rump Republic of Turkey in 1920s.

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  • Kemal Ataturk killed in 1917. Only a rump Republic of Turkey in 1920s.

    Ataturk is killed in 1917 in the Caucusus rallying his troops against Russian advances. Later in 1919-1920 the Soviets (unimpressed with Turkish forces without Ataturk to rally them) do not assist the Turks with gold and armaments in offensives against Armenia and Greece. The Treaty of Sevres is enforced. Can the Turkish state reconstitute (or is it constitute ) itself. Wikipedia has a pretty good map of the Treaty, I don't know how to post it here (wouldn't work copying it). There is a remnant Turkish state around Ankara. I imagine the British and Greeks would have a sort of condominium around Constantinople. Would the large south central Italian concession be tenable? One interesting possibility seems to be a possible Kurdish state in the east.

    One thought. Assuming (a large assumption) the treaty esentially stays in place into WWII, the French and Italian concessions might give a jumping off point for Germany to attack into the Caucasus after winning France in 1940.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Tuor View Post
    ... Wikipedia has a pretty good map of the Treaty, I don't know how to post it here (wouldn't work copying it). ...
    Copy the URL in the top bar of the Wiki page, the paste into the text here as you write.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Sèvres

    Alternately take a screen shot of the graphic, then attach that file from your computer to the post here using the attachment manager

    Originally posted by Tuor View Post
    One thought. Assuming (a large assumption) the treaty esentially stays in place into WWII, the French and Italian concessions might give a jumping off point for Germany to attack into the Caucasus after winning France in 1940.
    More likely Vichy Syria becoming a battlefield as Axis forces attempt to advance to Egypt via Syria & Palestine. Because the automotive and rail roads of Anatolia were so bad such a campaign is likely to make the logistics sinkhole of Libya look trivial. A Axis army moving east to the Caucassis will find things even worse. Entire armies vanished in the snow bound mountains there in the Great War. Ponder the German soldier lacking winter clothing, but at 1800 meters altitude on a mountain slope instead of the Russian woods or steppe.

    The Axis may have been able to push the Brits out of Syria & Iraq, but then as with Rommel in OTL they are at the limits of mid 20th Century technology to haul ten or twenty thousand tons of supply daily overland, on a few barely paved roads and a antiquated light railroad. The Brits meanwhile have their backs to large capable ports receiving the discharge of the worlds largest cargo fleet.
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    Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 25 Jun 12, 22:55.

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    • #3
      Turkish rump state would likely have been very pan-islamic, here the image of a "Haji Hitler" might have a certain romantic appeal but not much realistic support

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      • #4
        A Axis army moving east to the Caucassis will find things even worse. Entire armies vanished in the snow bound mountains there in the Great War. Ponder the German soldier lacking winter clothing, but at 1800 meters altitude on a mountain slope instead of the Russian woods or steppe.

        The Axis may have been able to push the Brits out of Syria & Iraq, but then as with Rommel in OTL they are at the limits of mid 20th Century technology to haul ten or twenty thousand tons of supply daily overland, on a few barely paved roads and a antiquated light railroad
        Exactly ! Firstly the germans have only a few local allies and none capable enough to challenge the resources of the "evil empire" of its day i.e the British.
        Furthermore this would have been an EXPENSIVE diversion from the real german war goals in Europe with scant gains.
        Thirdly this is a task well beyond the capability of the wehrmact even when it was at the height of its power.

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        • #5
          The converse is a Axis effort through this area would pull Commonwealth forces from other fronts and 1942 find a Allied/Axis battlefront scattered across the middle east. Churchill would no doubt see this as a avenue to the soft underbelly of Europe, but the same transportation difficulties apply to the Allies. US leaders would no doubt look in horror at the problems in prosecuting a major offensive northwards through Anatolia. Even trying to outflank the Axis forces by littoral operations along the coast to the Dardenelles would raise some uncomfortable thoughts. A campaign up the Italian mountains would be attractive in comparison.

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          • #6
            Without Ataturk, the Greeks probably take and hold Western Turkey and Istanbul. Germany has to invade in 40+.

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