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The Germans discover Patton's army is a ruse

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  • #31
    Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
    Australians had no presence in Normandy.
    Well a certain Chester Wilmott did land by glider on D-Day.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Aber View Post
      Well a certain Chester Wilmott did land by glider on D-Day.
      ...there were one or two more around, though very few on the ground. I'm pretty sure that after the fiasco in Greece in 1941 no Australian ground units served in the ETO. Plenty in the RAF, however.

      Australia, with the great bulk of its forces fighting Japan in the south-west Pacific, took a relatively small part in the operation, but the invasion force included up to about 3,000 Australians.

      About a dozen Australian soldiers were attached to British army formations, learning the ropes in preparation for amphibious operations in the Pacific later in the war. Some 500 Australian sailors served in dozens of Royal Navy warships, from battleships and corvettes down to motor torpedo boats and landing craft. Several Australians commanded flotillas of tank-landing ships, while others piloted landing craft carrying British and Canadian infantry onto the beaches.

      Australia’s main contribution was in the air. Between 2,000 and 2,500 Australian airmen served in dozens of RAF and ten RAAF squadrons of all kinds. Australian aircrew served in transport and glider-towing squadrons which carried airborne troops, fighter-bombers and fighters operating directly over the beach-head, and many in heavy bomber squadrons which dropped thousands of tons of bombs in support of the landings. Coastal Command squadrons operated far from the beaches of Normandy, protecting the Channel crossings from German naval forces.

      Fourteen Australians were killed on D-Day (two RAN and 12 RAAF).
      http://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/remembering1942/dday/
      Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

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      • #33
        Oh allright, no Australian ground units contributed to Overlord.
        Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Dashy View Post
          Monty Beat Rommel, to say otherwise is just silly, its like saying the Americans beat back the German spring offensive, sure they played a part, but it was mainly the British and French.

          Patton was just part of a larger picture. He didn't begin to really shine in German eyes till after D-Day, as stated before.
          Actually,many people around here DO believe Americans beat back German spring offensive all alone....
          It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

          Косово је Србија!
          Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

          Armored Brigade

          Armored Brigade Facebook page

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          • #35
            Originally posted by BF69 View Post
            ...there were one or two more around, though very few on the ground. I'm pretty sure that after the fiasco in Greece in 1941 no Australian ground units served in the ETO. Plenty in the RAF, however.



            http://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/remembering1942/dday/
            Agreed. It was truly an "Allied Operation."
            "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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            • #36
              I was kind of hoping this thread might explore what would happen if the Germans were able to hold off the invasion due to their discovery of the Allies' main deception plan.

              Unfortunately, nobody seems to have to have considered a German success a possibility, even given the Germans' large numerical superiority of forces deployed to face the invading armies in Normandy under that scenario.


              Philip
              "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell

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              • #37
                I don't think it changes anything, Philip.

                If I were the Germans & discovered it I would more likely just think it was a ruse designed to draw any of my (German) attention away from the actual forces known to be disbursed throughout England & thus become a target, instead of the actual forces so disbursed. The fact that significant forces were so disbursed as they were actually gives no hint as to their eventual destination. I strongly suspect forces would have been just as disbursed, though maybe to differing degrees, even if Calais had been the target, precisely because a concentrated 'target' was never a desire during the months preceding D-Day.

                Now I'm quite sure most prolly disagree, but that's my opinion, enh.


                On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

                ACG History Today

                BoRG

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                • #38
                  Target rich environment...
                  Credo quia absurdum.


                  Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by philiplaos View Post
                    I was kind of hoping this thread might explore what would happen if the Germans were able to hold off the invasion due to their discovery of the Allies' main deception plan.

                    Unfortunately, nobody seems to have to have considered a German success a possibility, even given the Germans' large numerical superiority of forces deployed to face the invading armies in Normandy under that scenario.


                    Philip
                    I read something today I'd never heard before. It involved plans to invade the beaches as soon after America had entered the war effort in 1942. Churchill wanted to delay the attack until 1944 so that they could further build-up forces and prepare. A better question might be if the invasion would have been successful in 1942, which I highly doubt.
                    "The time for war has not yet come, but it will come, and that soon; and when it does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard."

                    -Thomas Jonathan Jackson-

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Admiral View Post
                      I don't think it changes anything, Philip.

                      If I were the Germans & discovered it I would more likely just think it was a ruse designed to draw any of my (German) attention away from the actual forces known to be disbursed throughout England & thus become a target, instead of the actual forces so disbursed. The fact that significant forces were so disbursed as they were actually gives no hint as to their eventual destination. I strongly suspect forces would have been just as disbursed, though maybe to differing degrees, even if Calais had been the target, precisely because a concentrated 'target' was never a desire during the months preceding D-Day.

                      Now I'm quite sure most prolly disagree, but that's my opinion, enh.


                      Au contraire.

                      Everyone who has posted so far seems to agree with you.

                      Which would make Operation Bodyguard not critical to the success of the Allies' invasion of France.

                      I'm not convinced, but am not knowledgeable enough about division strength and capabilities to make a convincing opposing case.

                      Maybe someone else can.


                      Philip
                      "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by philiplaos View Post
                        I was kind of hoping this thread might explore what would happen if the Germans were able to hold off the invasion due to their discovery of the Allies' main deception plan.

                        Unfortunately, nobody seems to have to have considered a German success a possibility, even given the Germans' large numerical superiority of forces deployed to face the invading armies in Normandy under that scenario.


                        Philip
                        Hya Grandad

                        The problem you face is the usual anti-German stance from the Usual suspects and that basically boils down to that even giving the Germans every possible advantage they are just too stupid to do just about anything.

                        Their mindset is that stick by what happens hisorically and for them no other possiblity exists.

                        Essentially you can't fight that inflexibilty.

                        Cheers

                        Grandson

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                        • #42
                          Buffalo chips...

                          If the axis shows itself to shore bombardment its done.

                          Look at anzio, sicily, ect...
                          Credo quia absurdum.


                          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Plutarch View Post
                            I read something today I'd never heard before. It involved plans to invade the beaches as soon after America had entered the war effort in 1942. Churchill wanted to delay the attack until 1944 so that they could further build-up forces and prepare. A better question might be if the invasion would have been successful in 1942, which I highly doubt.
                            From the German/French armistice in mid 1940 the Brits started working on plans to reenter the continent. Initially those were only studies of the requirements & projected such a event at long range. After the Germans attacked the USSR the planning became more serious and imeadiate. At the end of 1941 several plans were being written on the possiblity of being used in 1942. These several plans were grouped under the general designation "Sledgehammer" with a variety of sub names. At least one plan for invading the Cotientin pennesula and capturing the port of Cherbourg was completed in the summer of 1942. Churchill was not opposed to these early plans, and hoped the US would be able to provide the material and men to ensure sucess.

                            Other early plans included delivering arms and ammunition to the French should they revolt against the German occupation and British occupation of selected ports should the Germans abandon them.

                            The replacement of Dill by Brooke as CIGS brought a end to serious consideration of these plans as Brooke favored a periphrial strategy and thought then there was merit to Harris s idea of bombing Germany into submission. US interest in a invasion of NW Europe & the Sledgehammer plans was rebuffed after Brooke took over & it took another 18 months before the British agreed to a invasion date and preparations.

                            The Brits did make a few concessions to the US pressure for a NW Europe invasion. COSSAC was established as a combined US/British staff for studying requirements and preparing further contingency plans for Sledgehammer Operations. Operation Roundup was the principle of these & it covered several 'emergency' plans should the German situation in France weaken. Those included a single army landing in Normandy, smaller landings near Calais, and paratroop drops within France should the Germans weaken sufficently. The basic assumption behind the Roundup group of plans was some sort of disaster in the east would cause German ground forces in the west to be drawn down.

                            In the second half of 1943 the US and USSR begain applying enormous pressure on the Brits to support a 1944 invasion. The arguments Brooke and Churchill had previously made were catagorically rejected.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                              Buffalo chips...

                              If the axis shows itself to shore bombardment its done.

                              Look at anzio, sicily, ect...
                              It doesn't have to be that way. The extra divisions discovering the deception allows the Germans to deploy to Normandy could have been deployed inland thus avoiding shore bombardment.


                              Philip
                              "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                So the allies get to post at. and artillery on the ground...

                                How does the axis kick them out?
                                Credo quia absurdum.


                                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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