Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Germany doesn't do Barbraossa...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Germany doesn't do Barbraossa...

    Let's try this, Germany pays Franco's price and goes west and south.

    Gibraltar subject to Gustav. Not to mention Stukas...

    The med is a axis lake at that point...

    The cost in wif is equal to 5 panzer corps and Italy no longer cooperates with Germany, also the US is ticked by both events...

    But. There it is...
    Credo quia absurdum.


    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

  • #2
    No matter what the final outcome, the war lasts longer. Which is either good or bad for Germany, depending on how you see it. If they prolong the war, they likely get nuked in late '45. I tried to make this point a while ago, but somehow got tripped up. After BoB failed, Raeder suggested coordinating with the Japanese in a plan called operation "Orient", in which Japan would work on the RN and Burma/India, Italy would head east from Libya into Egypt and then south to secure Ethiopia as a naval base for Axis Indian ocean forces. Germany would concentrate on operation "felix", "hercules", and then "sphinx"(the invasion of Egypt). All in all, "orient" is a better plan than "barbarossa".
    "In the absence of orders...find something and kill it!" Lt. General Erwin Rommel, 1942

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by smallvillekalel View Post
      No matter what the final outcome, the war lasts longer. Which is either good or bad for Germany, depending on how you see it. If they prolong the war, they likely get nuked in late '45. I tried to make this point a while ago, but somehow got tripped up. After BoB failed, Raeder suggested coordinating with the Japanese in a plan called operation "Orient", in which Japan would work on the RN and Burma/India, Italy would head east from Libya into Egypt and then south to secure Ethiopia as a naval base for Axis Indian ocean forces. Germany would concentrate on operation "felix", "hercules", and then "sphinx"(the invasion of Egypt). All in all, "orient" is a better plan than "barbarossa".
      If Germany develops the type of ADA network they had Berlin isn't getting nuked. A long bomber over Germany is dead meat and won't make it. Japan allowed solo and small bomber groups to over fly it unmolested and thus sowed the seeds of its own atomic destruction.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well the russians aren't fighting, and they're shipping them oil...

        Yeah we'd nuke them. But it would make the war last a couple more years...

        Those bombs were small, wiki the agm-69...

        Credo quia absurdum.


        Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
          Well the russians aren't fighting, and they're shipping them oil...

          Yeah we'd nuke them. But it would make the war last a couple more years...

          Those bombs were small, wiki the agm-69...

          WTF?

          Comment


          • #6
            They were itty bitty things...

            Not war winning devices by themselves...

            Wiki Operation Downfall...

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall
            Credo quia absurdum.


            Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
              They were itty bitty things...

              Not war winning devices by themselves...

              Wiki Operation Downfall...

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall
              They were physically the largest bombs carried by American aircraft in WWII.

              I am already on record as saying we couldn't do a Hiroshima style nuclear raod on Germany but for a moment lets assume we could. You claim the bombs could not win the war by itself.

              1. fatman or little boy type bomb radar delivered over Berlin can or cant win the war.

              If the Reichstag is the target.

              Gestapo HQ is gone, Hitlers bunker is gone, the government district is gone, OKH destroyed, most of the Nazi high command dead... Sounds like a war winner to me.

              Comment


              • #8
                You think that ratzi would be home?

                Nah, and you overestimate the effects of the bomb...
                Credo quia absurdum.


                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                  Well the russians aren't fighting, and they're shipping them oil...
                  :
                  ...and alot of strategic mineral ores, food stuffs and other priceless war making material, not easily obtainable by the German Reich. Stalin was very punctual about delivering his part of their trade deal and on time to his best friend Adolf. There's even an odd tale telling of how the Germans in one sector didn't open fire on the Russians for several hours, at the beginning of Barbarossa, in order to allow the last Russian supply train to pass safely and unmolested into German hands.
                  "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    [QUOTE=johnbryan;2262006]...and alot of strategic mineral ores, food stuffs and other priceless war making material, not easily obtainable by the German Reich. Stalin was very punctual about delivering his part of their trade deal and on time to his best friend Adolf. There's even an odd tale telling of how the Germans in one sector didn't open fire on the Russians for several hours, at the beginning of Barbarossa, in order to allow the last Russia

                    WTF? The German's were complaining to high heaven that Soviet deliveries were late and under quota...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      [QUOTE=zraver;2262011]
                      Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
                      ...and alot of strategic mineral ores, food stuffs and other priceless war making material, not easily obtainable by the German Reich. Stalin was very punctual about delivering his part of their trade deal and on time to his best friend Adolf. There's even an odd tale telling of how the Germans in one sector didn't open fire on the Russians for several hours, at the beginning of Barbarossa, in order to allow the last Russia

                      WTF? The German's were complaining to high heaven that Soviet deliveries were late and under quota...
                      Not according to Paul Carell's book "Hitler Turns East."
                      "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [QUOTE=johnbryan;2262041]
                        Originally posted by zraver View Post

                        Not according to Paul Carell's book "Hitler Turns East."
                        Not familiar with his work, does he cover both agreements or just one? Does he recount how Stalin slowed and virtually stopped deliveries when France fell, and didn't start them up again until it was clear Germany was facing a long war in the west with the British victory in the BoB?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Funny.... I used to think that if the Red Army struck first, they would have done an incredible amount of damage.
                          "Quantity has a Quality all it's own", after all.

                          But I was shot down so many times that it now seems that the Soviets would not have been able to keep their army supplied over 1/10th the distance that the Germans did, and would have been massacred in the process.
                          So, now the "smart money" gives me the impression that Stalin attacking first would have lead to the best chance Germany could have to win the war... imagine that.
                          "Why is the Rum gone?"

                          -Captain Jack

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            1. Taking Gibraltar isn't going to be a cakewalk. Think logististics first.

                            2. the Med isn't an Axis lake until the Axis take Malta and Suez. Further long-term plans are needed.

                            3. Meanwhile, the Soviets can strangle the German war machine, and the more the diversions go ahead, the better positioned the Soviets will be to. Never mind the oil, look up things like the supplies of food, manganese, or natural rubber (yes, the Soviets didn't produce it, but it arrived in Germany from the Far East along the Transiberian railway). The Germans aren't paying what they get, so by the fall of 1941 Stalin might close the taps.

                            4. Assuming Stalin doesn't do that during the no-campaigning season between 1941 and 1942, that still leaves the Soviet Union far better off for the summer of 1942. The border fortifications have been rebuilt along the new border. The army has had one more year to make up for the purges. One more year for training. The mobile units have been reformed and and shaken out in their new, better TO&Es. More T-34s and KV-1s. More modern aircraft. More secret air bases.

                            Bottom line, even assuming that by the summer of 1942 the Axis have taken Gibraltar and, let's imagine, have stormed Malta and reached Cairo, they are immensely worse off. Axis Europe as we know it was not self-supporting in 1941-42.
                            Last edited by Michele; 11 Jun 12, 04:06.
                            Michele

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                              Funny.... I used to think that if the Red Army struck first, they would have done an incredible amount of damage.
                              "Quantity has a Quality all it's own", after all.

                              But I was shot down so many times that it now seems that the Soviets would not have been able to keep their army supplied over 1/10th the distance that the Germans did, and would have been massacred in the process.
                              So, now the "smart money" gives me the impression that Stalin attacking first would have lead to the best chance Germany could have to win the war... imagine that.
                              Stalin attacking before 1942 equals a Soviet defeat not subjagation, but the Soviet state would survive. The Soviets attacking after 1942 means the Soviets enter Berlin 6 months later.

                              Soviet offensives were organized roughly on two logistics principles- 1. 30 days food and ammunition and 1 complete tank of gas for each tank. 2. waves or phases of attack. This reflected both truths about Soviet transportation and tactical/operational skill. Vatutin was probably the only Soviet commander able to act operationally with the Germans and even he was let down by Soviet tactical ineptness.

                              As a result the Soviets preferred massive set piece phased battles where individual units were given small objectives and expected to be fought out when they achieved them. Some times it worked and it eventually got them to Berlin, but sometimes it lead to epic failures such as the scrubbing of the tank riders during the Rhzev battles that left a large T-34 force trapped behind German lines with no infantry and no hope.

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X