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1982 RN Falklands Fleet vs 1942 Pre-Midway IJN

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  • 1982 RN Falklands Fleet vs 1942 Pre-Midway IJN

    Who would win.

    Scenario:

    Japan holds an island the size of the Falklands and protects it with the entire combined fleet. The island is garrisoned by 2 divisions of Japanese Army.

    The Royal Navy taskforce consist of all the forces used to liberate the Falklands in 1982.

    Can the Royal Navy defeat the IJN?

  • #2
    There may not be enough Royal Navy Vessels to win a campaign. I certainly doubt the British Army could have defeated two divisions of the IJA! I could see the British winning a long term siege. Of course there would not be any Falkland Islanders left or any sheep! All you would really need is one nuclear sub to keep away any ship traffic. The Argentines were able to do some aerial re-supply that the Japanese won't be able to do.

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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    • #3
      Two words nuclear submarines....

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      • #4
        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
        Two words nuclear submarines....
        Beat me to it.
        ------
        'I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.' - Thomas Jefferson

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        • #5
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          Two words nuclear submarines....
          Now don't go spoiling somebodies fun who wants the Japanese to actually win.

          I've come across some very slanted WI's in my time but this has to up there. 2Brigades vesus 2Divisons (in dug-in defended positions) Mmmmm. Unless the British had some Kamikaze mindset, then they wouldn't even attempt it.

          42 Harriers against how many hundred Japanese planes? Mmmm. Even though the Harriers would kill score upon score of Japanese planes, the sheer numbers and fatigue would eventually overwhelm the Harriers.

          The AD weps on the RN vessels would again take a large toll against any enemy aircraft, there ability to in anyway severely damage any single large asset of the Combined Fleet is minimal.

          Hence back to the 2 Nuclear subs who would come first and sink each ship one by one without any meaningful counter-measures.

          So the RN defeats the Combined Fleet, and then starves out the 2 Divisions via a blockade. Once all the sheep and penguins are gone, then its sionara Japan
          "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

          "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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          • #6
            Too bad they didn't have something that could go sonic. They could just go through the Japanese formation at say Mach 1.5 and destroy every plane in it in the sonic wake.....

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            • #7
              Nuclear submarines would be the RN's main weapon. How many were involved in the campaign? HMS Conqueror, is the only one I can name.

              While an SSN would be pretty much invulnerable, its impact on the IJN are limited by the number of torpedoes on board. How many did the HMS conqueror carryand which types? From the actual conflict, HMS conqueror used three Mark 8 (WWII vintage torpedoes) to sink the Belgrano because the Mk 28 Tigerfish had a smaller warhead and were judge to be not as reliable. So the main move would be for the HMS conqueror to engage the IJN carriers. If the RN is lucky, the nuke subs can take out most of the carriers.

              Is there anything on the RN arsenal that can take out the IJN battleship force of Yamato, Nagato, Mutsu, Ise, Hyuga, Fusu, Yamashiro, Kongo, Hiei, Haruna, Kirishima?

              Here are things to consider:
              1.) The Zero outranges the harrier (1,600 mile vs 600 miles)
              2.) There were only 28 sea harriers and 14 GR3 on the entire fleet and not all of them can be on the air at the same time.
              Last edited by IDonT4; 23 May 12, 21:00.

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              • #8
                What kind of surface to surface missiles did the Royal Navy use back then? I don't think they had Harpoons.

                Mark 8's exploded under the keels of a IJN Battleship would probably sink them. There is no difference in the armor plate under the belt of the Belgrano and the IJN capital ships.

                Pruitt
                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                  What kind of surface to surface missiles did the Royal Navy use back then? I don't think they had Harpoons.

                  Mark 8's exploded under the keels of a IJN Battleship would probably sink them. There is no difference in the armor plate under the belt of the Belgrano and the IJN capital ships.

                  Pruitt
                  The Mark 8's that sunk the Belgrano have contact fuse and cannot break her keel. She was sunk the old fashion way. The Tigerfish servicibility rate at that time were not that great.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                    Nuclear submarines would be the RN's main weapon. How many were involved in the campaign? HMS Conqueror, is the only one I can name.

                    While an SSN would be pretty much invulnerable, its impact on the IJN are limited by the number of torpedoes on board. How many did the HMS conqueror carryand which types? From the actual conflict, HMS conqueror used three Mark 8 (WWII vintage torpedoes) to sink the Belgrano because the Mk 28 Tigerfish had a smaller warhead and were judge to be not as reliable. So the main move would be for the HMS conqueror to engage the IJN carriers. If the RN is lucky, the nuke subs can take out most of the carriers.

                    Is there anything on the RN arsenal that can take out the IJN battleship force of Yamato, Nagato, Mutsu, Ise, Hyuga, Fusu, Yamashiro, Kongo, Hiei, Haruna, Kirishima?

                    Here are things to consider:
                    1.) The Zero outranges the harrier (1,600 mile vs 600 miles)
                    2.) There were only 28 sea harriers and 14 GR3 on the entire fleet and not all of them can be on the air at the same time.
                    A nuke sub, or even a conventional for that matter, needs to only put one torpedo, maybe two into a WW 2 carrier to cripple it. Remember, they would be using ones that run under the ship and break its back. Even the BB, except maybe Yamato and Musashi, would be vulnerable to a few as one torpedo. They also have SSM's aboard I believe.
                    The task force also has exocet and other SSM aboard too. The only thing limiting their wiping out an incoming strike (I'd ignore the Zeros and just finish the attack planes) is how much time they have to work the strike over. Even a 4.5" gun with modern fire control and proximity fuzing is going to be a plane killed in just a few rounds.

                    Aside from that, given the subs would know where the Japanese ships are they could easily direct harrier and even helicopter strikes on them. A harrier using a laser guided bomb from 25,000 feet or more would be invulnerable to retaliation. Hell, the Japanese probably wouldn't even know its there.

                    Then there is night. The Japanese are all but blind. The British have all sorts of night vision equipment. Same thing. One sided battle.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      A nuke sub, or even a conventional for that matter, needs to only put one torpedo, maybe two into a WW 2 carrier to cripple it. Remember, they would be using ones that run under the ship and break its back.
                      How many torpedoes did the five RN SSN collectively carry? How many fired will miss and how much does it take to sink a large warship? Be realistic now, it took 3 MK 8 to sink the Belgrano (1 missed).

                      The best bet for the SSN is to take out as much of the carrier force as possible before she runs out of ammo.

                      Even the BB, except maybe Yamato and Musashi, would be vulnerable to a few as one torpedo. They also have SSM's aboard I believe.
                      The task force also has exocet and other SSM aboard too.
                      The RN taskforce did not have alot of SSM, for example, the Type 42 did not carry them. Besides, SSM missiles were designed to expload at impact or within a few inches. I highly doubt they can penetrate battleship armor. That was one of the reasons the IOWAs were put back into service.

                      The only thing limiting their wiping out an incoming strike (I'd ignore the Zeros and just finish the attack planes) is how much time they have to work the strike over. Even a 4.5" gun with modern fire control and proximity fuzing is going to be a plane killed in just a few rounds.
                      Don't forget the servicibility rate of the harriers. Don't expect to have all 48 in the air at any given time. Sheer numbers and the Japanese willingness to carry through the attack regardless of losses suggest that one or both carriers will get bombed. Secondly, while sea dart and sea wolf were great SAMS, they are limited to the number of targets they can engage simultaneously. Also, the RN AAA was lacking.

                      Aside from that, given the subs would know where the Japanese ships are they could easily direct harrier and even helicopter strikes on them. A harrier using a laser guided bomb from 25,000 feet or more would be invulnerable to retaliation. Hell, the Japanese probably wouldn't even know its there.
                      How would the RN taskforce know where is? You are assuming that HMS Conqueror would perfectly positioned magically to around 100 miles from the the IJN fleet. How many laser guided bomb did the taskforce carry? Is it enough?

                      There is greater probability that the IJN will find the RN fleet first due to larger numbers of recon aircraft. Also bear in mind that the IJN outranges the RN.
                      Last edited by IDonT4; 23 May 12, 21:58.

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                      • #12
                        Here are my tactics as the Japanese Admiral.

                        1.) Split my carrier force into 3 fleets to ensure survivability against the technologically superior enemy submarine force.
                        2.) Put my heavy force (heavy cruisers and BB) in reserve.
                        3.) Wait until the RN fleet starts to land their troops to minimized the opportunity to maneuver. Get this info from the Army in the Falklands.
                        4.) Once the location of the landing is determined, sortie the heavy force against them.
                        5.) Simultaneously determine where the RN carrier is and launch an all out attack.
                        Last edited by IDonT4; 23 May 12, 21:59.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                          How many torpedoes did the five RN SSN collectively carry? How many fired will miss and how much does it take to sink a large warship? Be realistic now, it took 3 MK 8 to sink the Belgrano (1 missed).

                          The best bet for the SSN is to take out as much of the carrier force as possible before she runs out of ammo.
                          Taking the carriers out is a piece of cake. The sub simply closes to say 1000 yards or less and puts one either amidships or better yet, right in the screws..... The Japanese have ZERO to attack a nuclear sub. Their sonar and ASW weapons might as well be non-existant. They don't even have a depth charge that could go deep enough to attack a boat....


                          The RN taskforce did not have alot of SSM, for example, the Type 42 did not carry them. Besides, SSM missiles were designed to expload at impact or within a few inches. I highly doubt they can penetrate battleship armor. That was one of the reasons the IOWAs were put back into service.
                          Use what you have to demolish the small boys... DD and cruisers. That leaves the Japanese with no scouts, no torpedoes, and slow battleships...


                          Don't forget the servicibility rate of the harriers. Don't expect to have all 48 in the air at any given time. Sheer numbers and the Japanese willingness to carry through the attack regardless of losses suggest that one or both carriers will get bombed. Secondly, while sea dart and sea wolf were great SAMS, they are limited to the number of targets they can engage simultaneously. Also, the RN AAA was lacking.
                          Don't need them. Just the slow speed of the aircraft and British radar means that they will have 20 + minutes to work over a strike... Or more. I'd expect on the order of 70 to 90% casualties among the strike aircraft.
                          Just give them a taste of 30mm Arden cannon fire. One shell is sufficent to take down a Kate or Val. Once the strike planes are gone, its game over in any case for the Japanese. Why should the Harriers even bother with AAM. Load them with extra fuel, max cannon ammo and unguided rocket pods. Get close and hammer the strike planes. With modern sighting equipment they can roll in and do all sorts of high side passes at deflection and cream the Japanese.

                          Add Royal Marine and Army Blowpipe and Rapiers on things like the helo pads of ships for more fire power too. Even a Phalanx is going to be a seriously dangerous threat to a Japanese plane.

                          How would the RN taskforce know where is? You are assuming that HMS Conqueror would perfectly positioned magically to around 100 miles from the the IJN fleet. How many laser guided bomb did the taskforce carry? Is it enough?
                          ESM would be one way. The second the Japanese transmit, well, virtually anything, they are doomed. Need more range? Send the ESM up on a helicopter. Today's stuff is far more sensitive and directional than anything in WW 2. A second is tracking incoming strikes and plotting a recripical course back to their position. With tactical data systems that are on the British ships if one knows, all know.....

                          Would the Nimrods that flew out of Ascension Island be available? They would find them in no time flat.

                          There is greater probability that the IJN will find the RN fleet first due to larger numbers of recon aircraft. Also bear in mind that the IJN outranges the RN.
                          Single scouts having to get within visual range for detection? Can you say toast? They'd be spotted so far out on air search radar it wouldn't be funny.

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                          • #14
                            RN Submarines deployed to the Falklands conflict were:-

                            HMS Conqueror
                            HMS Courageous
                            HMS Valiant
                            HMS Onyx
                            HMS Spartan
                            HMS Splendid

                            Bar for Onyx, they were all Nuke powered boats.

                            More than enough weaponry to send the IJN to the murky depths of the South Atlantic

                            Regards
                            "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                            "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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                            • #15
                              So the Japs get to use the entire Combined Fleet pre-Midway and 2 divisions, and the Brits only get to send the forces they sent in '82?
                              Кто там?
                              Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                              Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

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