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Francisco Franco loses the Spanish Civil War

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  • Francisco Franco loses the Spanish Civil War

    Franco gets transport to southern Spain by the Luffwaffer but them Hitler abondons him to concintrate on the upcoming war . In short order the Spanish giovernment defeats him and puts him in prison. When World War Two starts Spain joins the allies . They fight mostly In Europe and North Africa . But some small units go the the pacific to assit the US Marines against the Japanese. How is the world diffrent after the war is over .

  • #2
    I can't see Spain joining the Allies until later in the war, if at all. Declaring on Germany prior to say about 1943 would have gotten them over run and Gibralter taken.
    Spain was in pretty bad shape economically following their civil war. Their military was too.

    Now, once Russia (since there would be a big Communist faction in the Spanish government) got attacked and Germany started to lose Spain might throw in with the Allies. But, at that point it is just kicking a man already down.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner
      I can't see Spain joining the Allies until later in the war, if at all. Declaring on Germany prior to say about 1943 would have gotten them over run and Gibralter taken.
      Spain was in pretty bad shape economically following their civil war. Their military was too....
      Yup,... if this alt time line still has a protracted civil war Spain is pretty much a basket case that would have required more economic and food aid than military weapons. The smartest thing for it to have done was lay low, accept the aid offered and slowly rebuild. Post Torch/Tunisia it could then offer the allies Spain as a base for returning to Europe for even more economic aid. germany's position in the south and west could have been fatally compromised in early 1943

      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner
      ...Now, once Russia (since there would be a big Communist faction in the Spanish government) got attacked and Germany started to lose Spain might throw in with the Allies. But, at that point it is just kicking a man already down.
      Hmmm,... more likely 'strong socialist' elements but that's neither here nor there. There is no need for sympathy for Nazi Germany, "kicking" Germany when it was down is precisely what was required. The boots needed to be laid to the regime repeatedly and forcefully. The more weight brought to bear sooner on Germany the better,... the Nazis regime and the German military that backed it needed to be destroyed without mercy.
      The Purist

      Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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      • #4
        I wonder how many tons of Allied supplies could have been sent north on the Spanish/French railroad connection? Landing some Allied port operations units & transportation groups in Spain and Portugal simultaneous to a invasion of France might improve the Allied supply over the longer haul? If the railroad capacity is large enough. The Spanish would be happy for the business & at least deploy a infantry corps into France for the Allied cause.

        Before the Allies return to the continent Spain would been to walk a narrow line & restrict its aid to restricting material to Germany and hosting Allied spies.

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        • #5
          Worse case, Germany invades Spain and captures Gibralta and then slaps German troops in Spanish Morrocco and with U-Boats and Luftwaffe divebombers and vast belts of German mines seals off the Western Med and with the capture of the Vichy French Fleet the British in North Africa have to rely on supplies coming around the Cape and eastern supply routes.

          Auckinlecks troops gets smashed by the combined German and Italian forces.

          Instead of facing Vichy French units the Allies are faced with German divisions stationed in North Western Africa when they launch Operation Torch

          Worse case scenario.

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          • #6
            This scenario has problems, starting with the Spanish communists. They would have gotten Spain into a position where the Western Allies would be pitted against them.

            I am not sure how likely invasions across the Pyrenees are. Might not be within German capabilities if there is resistance.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Redwolf View Post
              This scenario has problems, starting with the Spanish communists. They would have gotten Spain into a position where the Western Allies would be pitted against them.

              I am not sure how likely invasions across the Pyrenees are. Might not be within German capabilities if there is resistance.
              The Spanish Republican Army by the time the Civil War was over was a gutted force, even allowing their victory over the Nationalist would have been ineffectual against the Germans.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                Worse case, Germany invades Spain and captures Gibralta and then slaps German troops in Spanish Morrocco and with U-Boats and Luftwaffe divebombers and vast belts of German mines seals off the Western Med and with the capture of the Vichy French Fleet the British in North Africa have to rely on supplies coming around the Cape and eastern supply routes.

                Auckinlecks troops gets smashed by the combined German and Italian forces.

                Instead of facing Vichy French units the Allies are faced with German divisions stationed in North Western Africa when they launch Operation Torch

                Worse case scenario.
                Or, alternatively, Gibraltar does not fall, Auchinleck's troops do not "gets smashed" by the combined German and Italian forces and we see a rerun of the Peninsular War with, perhaps, a similar outcome.
                "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                Samuel Johnson.

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                • #9
                  And what of the role of Portugal? Salazar dictatorship in the 1940s, but a traditional ally of the U.K. And in real world WWII:
                  As World War II raged in the 1940's, Portugal was among one of only five neutral European countries. It did however grant both British and American armed forces access to some key areas, including the Azores, to help protect Allied shipping in the mid-Atlantic.
                  One scenario (perhaps a wee bit extreme---but )
                  Elements of he French army retreat not to North Africa but to a friendly socialist Spain and, reinforced by elements of the British Army (which did reenter France after Dunkirk) hold for a while the Pyranees line.
                  The British use as bases Portugal and Gibralter to hold much of the Iberian Peninsula. British (and French?) seapower prevent German invasion by sea into iberia.

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                  • #10
                    Depends on the timeframe.
                    Spain joins war in 39-40, and germany spends an extra year clearing Western Europe, before attacking the USSR. British/FFrench/Spanish possibly hold the line down south. America enters in 41 with Pearl Harbor, Russia backstabs Germany post Allied offense into France.
                    Spain joins the war in 44, same thing happens as all those south american nations that joined the war "late"
                    Nothing.

                    No real reason after the Russian invasion that Germany or Spain would want to open that front up.

                    Likely scenario is Spain stays neutral, Germany decides to not comit an army, and Spain declares war on Germany in 1944 after Normandy and South France landings.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tuor View Post
                      And what of the role of Portugal? Salazar dictatorship in the 1940s, but a traditional ally of the U.K. And in real world WWII:


                      One scenario (perhaps a wee bit extreme---but )
                      Elements of he French army retreat not to North Africa but to a friendly socialist Spain and, reinforced by elements of the British Army (which did reenter France after Dunkirk) hold for a while the Pyranees line.
                      The British use as bases Portugal and Gibralter to hold much of the Iberian Peninsula. British (and French?) seapower prevent German invasion by sea into iberia.
                      Sounds good . in my minds eye I can see it happening

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                        I wonder how many tons of Allied supplies could have been sent north on the Spanish/French railroad connection? Landing some Allied port operations units & transportation groups in Spain and Portugal simultaneous to a invasion of France might improve the Allied supply over the longer haul? If the railroad capacity is large enough. The Spanish would be happy for the business & at least deploy a infantry corps into France for the Allied cause.

                        Before the Allies return to the continent Spain would been to walk a narrow line & restrict its aid to restricting material to Germany and hosting Allied spies.
                        US Army Engineer and Navy SeaBee construction battalion track gangs could improve Spain's railroad system in little time, provided the Luftwaffe could be kept at bay.
                        "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
                          US Army Engineer and Navy SeaBee construction battalion track gangs could improve Spain's railroad system in little time, provided the Luftwaffe could be kept at bay.
                          I doubt even in 1943 the LW could make a interdiction campaign of that scale stick. They made some skillful raids on ports & other targets in the Med, but the number of sorties was not remotely of the scale needed to confound Allied logistics there. It took the US 9th AF & RAF half a year and thousands of sorties to take down the Franco/Belgian railroads for the Overlord campaign. I cant see the LW able to the necessary effort in 1944 or even 43.

                          The condition & capacity of the Spanish railroads might be more important. The low capacity Algerian & Tunisia railroads illustrates the potential problem.

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                          • #14
                            Can Some one tell me the strenght of the Spanish Navy at that time ? And could they be of help to ,let us say the USN in the Pacific after the attack on Pearl Harbor ? And could the Spanish send some quick strike force to assit the USMC also ?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                              The Spanish Republican Army by the time the Civil War was over was a gutted force, even allowing their victory over the Nationalist would have been ineffectual against the Germans.
                              The Germans would still have to either cross the Pyrenees or use an amphibious operation.

                              They could commit enough resources to make it work, but would they draw these resources away from something else?

                              I think they would only invade a communist Spain if they were certain that the Western Allies would do it otherwise. But that early in the war I don't see those in a shape to do it either.

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