Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

No 'Great Purge' of the RKKA

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    There is a brief article published back in the old US Field Artillery Journal in the 1990s. It examined the effects of the Purge and the massive expansion of the Red Army on the field artillery. The author did see some problem in the general doctrine but also described a serious problem in training & hence effectivness from the artillery regiment HQ down to the battery. One gets the feeling that had the Red Army artillery of 1941 posessed the skills of 1944 or even 1943 the German attack would have been shot to bits in a few months. There was of course no chance of that, but even a 20% improvement in killing Germans through better training adds another 100,000 to 200,000 to the German casualty lists through December 1941.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
      There is a brief article published back in the old US Field Artillery Journal in the 1990s. It examined the effects of the Purge and the massive expansion of the Red Army on the field artillery. The author did see some problem in the general doctrine but also described a serious problem in training & hence effectivness from the artillery regiment HQ down to the battery. One gets the feeling that had the Red Army artillery of 1941 posessed the skills of 1944 or even 1943 the German attack would have been shot to bits in a few months. There was of course no chance of that, but even a 20% improvement in killing Germans through better training adds another 100,000 to 200,000 to the German casualty lists through December 1941.
      Those are the sort of observations that make these threads so worthwhile. There is a lot of focus on more obvious aspects such as well known generals & armoured formations, but key components such as artillery often get ignored. Add this to better commanders at division level & below, a consistent armoured warfare doctrine that troops & officers are better drilled in and less general disruption to training & doctrine and what do you get?
      Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by BF69 View Post
        ... and what do you get?
        A German army that cannot execute 'Case Blue' in 1942, among other things mentioned and unmentioned already here.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
          A German army that cannot execute 'Case Blue' in 1942, among other things mentioned and unmentioned already here.
          Yup. There will most likely be a big german offensive in 1942, but I suspect it ends up looking more like Kursk than what actually happened in 1942. By 'more' I don't mean identical. Germany will still be able to hurt Russia in 1942 & the Red Army will still be on that steep learning curve & generally getting its sh1t together. They will, however, be able to inflict heavier losses on the Germans for less gain than in OTL.

          All of this raises other issues - how does the lack of a purge impact the wider war? I'm going to assume that the Pacific looks broadly similar at first. Russia hands Japan its head some time in 1938 or 1939 & the 'Strike South' crew gain the ascendancy. Japan still attacks the US - they don't see themselves as having much of a choice & Russia is still distracted. It gets interesting in 1944, however. if germany is close to defeat on the Eastern front (which is at least possible), when will Stalin open that second front? When he does, what does it look like? Can he invade the home islands? How much of China does he get & does he decide to hold any? Is Korea totally communist? Do the Americans change their plans at all & aim more directly for Japan?

          How does all this impact the Manhattan Project?

          How about Nth Africa & Sth Europe? Lets assume minimal change into 1942. German forces deployed in NA are not huge yet. Do they ever get to be? Can Hitler spare all those troops who ended up in Tunisia? Do they end up in Sicily & Italy, or do they end up in Russia? DO the Allies ever get to the Italian mailand or does the prospect of a more rapid German loss give the Americans the upper hand in pushing for a front in Nth Europe in 1943? In OTL that would have been a mess. Here, with fewer german troops available, would it be able to succeed?

          So many interesting possibilities.
          Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by BF69 View Post
            Yup. There will most likely be a big german offensive in 1942, but I suspect it ends up looking more like Kursk than what actually happened in 1942. By 'more' I don't mean identical. Germany will still be able to hurt Russia in 1942 & the Red Army will still be on that steep learning curve & generally getting its sh1t together. They will, however, be able to inflict heavier losses on the Germans for less gain than in OTL.

            All of this raises other issues - how does the lack of a purge impact the wider war? I'm going to assume that the Pacific looks broadly similar at first. Russia hands Japan its head some time in 1938 or 1939 & the 'Strike South' crew gain the ascendancy. Japan still attacks the US - they don't see themselves as having much of a choice & Russia is still distracted. It gets interesting in 1944, however. if germany is close to defeat on the Eastern front (which is at least possible), when will Stalin open that second front?
            Historically the USSR waited until Germany was completely defeated, and the far Eastern Army had been reequipped.

            Originally posted by BF69 View Post
            When he does, what does it look like? Can he invade the home islands?
            The amphibious ops underataken in 1945 were well limited by lack of amphibious transport and assualt craft. The Red Army could undertake the same sort of ops in 1944, but without a provision of a sizable transport fleet these ops wont be decisive.

            Originally posted by BF69 View Post
            How much of China does he get & does he decide to hold any? Is Korea totally communist? Do the Americans change their plans at all & aim more directly for Japan?
            The USN central pacific offensive was directly aimed at Japan. Hard to see anything more direct.

            Originally posted by BF69 View Post
            How does all this impact the Manhattan Project?
            Probably not at all. The manufactoring plant was built and starting production of the necessary Uranium isotopes by latter 1943. It is unlikely anyone would shut down such a huge investment because of some intelligence evaluations of the German situation. The Allies had been rudely suprised by Germany several times and no one wanted to take chances by this date.

            Originally posted by BF69 View Post

            How about Nth Africa & Sth Europe? Lets assume minimal change into 1942. German forces deployed in NA are not huge yet. Do they ever get to be? Can Hitler spare all those troops who ended up in Tunisia? Do they end up in Sicily & Italy, or do they end up in Russia?
            Good question. I'd think the same ammount of German AF commitment to the Med, but entire 'panzer armies' are less likely

            Originally posted by BF69 View Post
            DO the Allies ever get to the Italian mailand or does the prospect of a more rapid German loss give the Americans the upper hand in pushing for a front in Nth Europe in 1943? In OTL that would have been a mess. Here, with fewer german troops available, would it be able to succeed?
            The last chance for a decision to invade NW Europe came at the Symbol confrence at Casablanca in January 1943. If the Axis are at or near surrender in Tunisia then a 1943 invasion of France might be decided on. However the Brits were adamantly opposed, they wanted badly to reopen the Med. sea route to cargo ships. So, attacks on Sardinia, Sicilly, and perhaps Crete too are more likely. Still if there is only a single armored corps in western Europe vs the three historically present then Brookes arguments against might fail. Also rather than NW France in 1943 a attack on the south coast after Sardinia/Corsica were secured might be practical. A sort of year early 'Anvil' operation. Sucess there could lead to a late autum or winter 'Madeline' operation as the British had planned for October 1942.

            Comment

            Latest Topics

            Collapse

            Working...
            X