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  • The IRISH and the NAZIS

    What if, the IRISH and the GERMANS had teamed up before the air Battle of Britain had started early 1940.

    Thousands of IRA FIFTH COLUMN troops on UK soil would have created havoc on Great Britain in early 1940 after DUNKIRK.

    It's no secret the IRISH despised the British and wanted their independence then and would have made a deal with the devil to achieve it.

    What is strange, looking back through the history and records of those times, despite several offers from the IRA then to join forces with the NAZIS, Hitler never took them up on the offer.

    The NAZIS with air bases and troops in Ireland would have changed everything in 1940 :

    The UK would have been knocked out of the war.

    U- BOATS could sail from IRELAND as well sinking even more relief ships destined for the Soviet Union.

    There would have been no airbases in the UK to launch bombing runs over German territory from 1940 on, except maybe ICELAND.

    There would not have been an easy launching point for the allies to invade Europe from as the UK would not be available.

    The decision not to join forces with the IRA by the NAZIS was the biggest blunder of the war by the Germans and ended of causing an increasing negative cascading effect from the summer of 1940 until the end.

  • #2
    Problems:

    1) Logistics. To fly aircraft from Ireland, or to sail subs from Ireland you need to get Bullets/Bombs/Food/Fuel/Parts/Crews to Ireland. To do so will either require a massive scale aerial campaign on the level of the Berlin Airlift, or a convoy route, or regular shipping runs. All of which are outside of Nazi Germany's ability to do in such close proximity to Britain and the RN/RAF.

    2) Loss of Ally. The Irish might put together an army overnight, but the Brits still have standing forces remaining. Knowing that Ireland is a bigger problem than the feared "Seelowe", the Army can send its best infantry formations to retake Ireland by Force and execute one of dozens of plans to control the populace there.

    There are a multiplicity of other problems from communications issues on down, but those pretty well sink any Irish-Nazi Alliance.
    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
      Problems:

      1) Logistics. To fly aircraft from Ireland, or to sail subs from Ireland you need to get Bullets/Bombs/Food/Fuel/Parts/Crews to Ireland. To do so will either require a massive scale aerial campaign on the level of the Berlin Airlift, or a convoy route, or regular shipping runs. All of which are outside of Nazi Germany's ability to do in such close proximity to Britain and the RN/RAF.

      2) Loss of Ally. The Irish might put together an army overnight, but the Brits still have standing forces remaining. Knowing that Ireland is a bigger problem than the feared "Seelowe", the Army can send its best infantry formations to retake Ireland by Force and execute one of dozens of plans to control the populace there.

      There are a multiplicity of other problems from communications issues on down, but those pretty well sink any Irish-Nazi Alliance.
      No it would not happen overnight as far a building sub pens and such, but the NAZIS were not at war with the Soviets then either.

      Lets not forget the NAZIS had mastered aerial assault forces, and had used them before ... how lightly guarded Ireland was at the time and so very weak after DUNKIRK several crack NAZI units could control whatever they wanted until heavier units arrived.

      The IRA would have been used as a guerellia force by the NAZIS and defacto government. Blowing up rail lines, communications, causing widespread panic.

      Comment


      • #4
        Point of fact, after Dunkirk the Germans were rebuilding their airborne and glider forces from their successful, but (as always) costly attacks. They wouldn't have been ready for immediate assault, and given any time the RAF will be able to throw enough planes in the air to make any airborne mission that involves flying from France to Ireland a suicide mission.

        Also, even if the Germans had not expended their airborne Corps on their attacks in the West, they did not have more than a small Corps of airborne troops. Not enough to decisively defeat the British on their own. And also, with the Royal Navy able to decisively control all shipping traffic (the U-boats didn't have quite as good a record against flotillas of Destroyers and light cruisers) those troops would have slowly starved as the RN and RAF strangled them of supplies.
        Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

        Comment


        • #5
          DB,

          Your premise' major flaw is that you equate Ireland and the IRA as the same thing, ie both of their political aims are consistent. At this tiime in history, the IRA was a proscribed organization in both Ireland and the North. If Hitler had wanted to have used the Irish ports for his subs (and why would he, he already had the French ports for this), he would have had to have not undertaken any discussions with the IRA. If he had wanted to use the IRA (which was not a popular an institution as you seem to think it is) as a fifth column in Britain proper, than he could kiss any access to the Irish ports good-bye.

          You also have to provide a viable reason for Ireland, a poor country with no foreign policy other than trying to create a modern nation, to have gotten involved in such a venture with no positive consequences. Ireland could not have afforded to become involved in a war, and Britain was (whether they liked it or not) still their greatest asset in wealth generation and trade.

          So think up a good reason for Ireland to have aided a facsist totalitarian alien state that was at war with it's number one trading partner, and how after having betrayed its partner it would, on the slim chance that a German victory was possible, have benefitted.

          Cheers,
          Dan.
          So long as men worship the Caesars and Napoleons, Caesars and Napoleons will duly rise and make them miserable.

          Aldous Huxley: Ends and Means (1937)

          Comment


          • #6
            An interesting scenario, but I think that the philosophical gulf between the Nazis and the ordinary people of Ireland was far too big:hostility to the U.K.notwithstanding.

            Besides ,didn't De Valera once say that the defence of the entire "Western European" Islands was one.
            "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
            Samuel Johnson.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dan M View Post
              DB,

              Your premise' major flaw is that you equate Ireland and the IRA as the same thing, ie both of their political aims are consistent. At this tiime in history, the IRA was a proscribed organization in both Ireland and the North. If Hitler had wanted to have used the Irish ports for his subs (and why would he, he already had the French ports for this), he would have had to have not undertaken any discussions with the IRA. If he had wanted to use the IRA (which was not a popular an institution as you seem to think it is) as a fifth column in Britain proper, than he could kiss any access to the Irish ports good-bye.

              You also have to provide a viable reason for Ireland, a poor country with no foreign policy other than trying to create a modern nation, to have gotten involved in such a venture with no positive consequences. Ireland could not have afforded to become involved in a war, and Britain was (whether they liked it or not) still their greatest asset in wealth generation and trade.

              So think up a good reason for Ireland to have aided a facsist totalitarian alien state that was at war with it's number one trading partner, and how after having betrayed its partner it would, on the slim chance that a German victory was possible, have benefitted.

              Cheers,
              Dan.
              Then neither of you are familiar with the KATHLEEN PLAN ?

              The info was released by British Intelligence ( MI5 ) in 2001 and printed in the UK TELEGRAPH in which the IRA and senior German officials had discussed the measure several times in Berlin. Germans had parachuted into Ireland, scouted the country, logistics, and hid in Ireland for nearly a year among the people.

              How long had IRELAND been battling for their indpendence at that point in time, and how much longer would it go on ?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                An interesting scenario, but I think that the philosophical gulf between the Nazis and the ordinary people of Ireland was far too big:hostility to the U.K.notwithstanding.

                Besides ,didn't De Valera once say that the defence of the entire "Western European" Islands was one.
                I'm not so sure, the IRA had 5,000 trained saboteurs ready to go into action then with thousands more ready to aid the effort.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                  Then neither of you are familiar with the KATHLEEN PLAN ?

                  The info was released by British Intelligence ( MI5 ) in 2001 and printed in the UK TELEGRAPH in which the IRA and senior German officials had discussed the measure several times in Berlin. Germans had parachuted into Ireland, scouted the country, logistics, and hid in Ireland for nearly a year among the people.

                  How long had IRELAND been battling for their indpendence at that point in time, and how much longer would it go on ?
                  A good point indeed, but how viable was KATHLEEN really ?
                  "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                  Samuel Johnson.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                    The NAZIS with air bases and troops in Ireland would have changed everything in 1940 :
                    ....

                    The decision not to join forces with the IRA by the NAZIS was the biggest blunder of the war by the Germans and ended of causing an increasing negative cascading effect from the summer of 1940 until the end.
                    The Germans couldn't even get across the English Channel, and you're somehow assuming that they can now get all the way to Ireland. And interesting nomination for biggest blunder by the Germans in WW2.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I suppose one-nut and his buddies in Berlin could have planned anything. As shown by earlier posters planning and doing are two really, really different things!

                      How do you figure the bulk of the Irish would have taken to a ratzi slaughter of the clergy similar to that carried out in Poland?!

                      Regards,
                      Dennis
                      If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

                      Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Britain would not stand by if Ireland entered into an alliance with Germany. It would be attacked and occupied and I believe the British government actually had a contingency plan for this.

                        Not that it matters, despite de Valera's bluster, behind the scenes the Irish government worked quite closely with the UK government in sharing intelligence, allowing the British to recruit in Ireland for workers for industry and allowing Irish citizens to join the British Army, at least 10,000+ did so. When German pilots bailed out they were jailed, Allied pilots were returned.

                        With all this cooperation, de Valera managed to cock it up by giving his sympathies to the German delegation when Hitler shot himself. Even the German delegation was shocked and this stupid action cost Ireland in the post-war years.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Churchill would have been delighted.

                          The hope had been that the Irish would hand back the Treaty Ports (rashly given to Ireland in 1938) for the duration of the War. With the use of the Ports, air and naval protection of the convoys across Atlantic would have been been extended greatly.

                          De Valera never did this.

                          British Troops were permanently stationed on the Northern Irish border and would have taken control of the Republic in a few days.

                          The British never took this step because of the adverse reaction it would have created in the USA.

                          If Germany chose to dump a few Paratroopers on Irish soil - even more to go into the bag.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mackie View Post
                            Not that it matters, despite de Valera's bluster, behind the scenes the Irish government worked quite closely with the UK government in sharing intelligence, allowing the British to recruit in Ireland for workers for industry and allowing Irish citizens to join the British Army, at least 10,000+ did so. When German pilots bailed out they were jailed, Allied pilots were returned.
                            Irish workers in the UK ammounted to a significant part of Irelands laboring population. Beyond that Irelands economy was still enterwined with Britains in everyway. Entering the war as a German ally would have instantly crashed the Irish economy due to a cessation of trade and financial transaction across the Irish sea. Then there would be British control of the Atlantic. Untill the Royal Navy is broken and the sea lanes are entirely open Ireland would have no imports of coal, oil, food, or anything else. Ireland was hardly selfsuffcient in fuels, depend on fishing and the Americas for a balanced food supply, and other essential imports.

                            Such a action would simply have been insane, a sort of national economic suicide.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                              The decision not to join forces with the IRA by the NAZIS was the biggest blunder of the war by the Germans.
                              The Nazi's did attempt to form an alliance with the IRA, and a number of the senior IRA leaders were willing to do so, but the Nazi's soon found out that the IRA was in no fit state to provide any effective help.

                              Comment

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