Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Soviet Navy in pre-emptive attack, 1941

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Tuomas_ View Post
    What was the chance of just outbidding the Germans for the iron?
    Well! That is itself an interesting question! There would be more involved: Sweden relied on Germany for some very important commodities, petroleum as one example. There would have to be an alternative supply for such items in place for any such offer to be credible. For the Allies to achieve that, there would be the need for clear passage across Finland, negotiated or otherwise, as well as supply through Narvik. Nothing was going through the Baltic.

    Was Sweden too wary of German retaliation to accept Allied offers?
    I would say yes, even certainly before 1943 or 1944. Sweden, like Norway and Finland, is a country with a small population concentrated in a few urban areas, with the remainder spread thinly through large areas of sometimes hostile wilderness. They wanted to stay out of it, at all costs.

    From a position of weakness in 1939, Sweden mobilized their population and learned to become self-sufficient, building their own tanks and designing some rather excellent aircraft. By 1943, certainly by 1944, Sweden was in a position where they need not fear German military action, except for their economic dependency. If the Allies had stepped in to pick up the slack, the war might have ended sooner.

    Regards
    Scott Fraser
    Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

    A contentedly cantankerous old fart

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Tuomas_ View Post
      Murmansk an outlet? Nickel and molybdenum?
      No.
      What I meant was that Murmansk could threaten Narvik and the Baltic fleet could threaten the direct route, to Swedish ore.

      There is a problem here, it has been noted that the Germans had a habit of concentrating their forces, while the Soviet navy tended to dissipate it's efforts.
      Goods news for the people who like the idea of Submarines everywhere, very bad for the surface fleet.
      "Why is the Rum gone?"

      -Captain Jack

      Comment


      • #18
        Sweden needed coal, they got it from Germany. Sweden was not going to give up its trade with Germany based on a bidding war. both nations had a strategic commodity they other needed. If Sweden pisses off the Germans they are isolated and have no means of replacing the material they got from Germany.

        Btw,... the few Soviet DDs in Murmansk did not have the range to operate off Murmansk for very long. It was all they could to pick up the escort of the PQs for the last few miles to Murmansk. The Red Fleet is effectively a non-entity, it major units weak and armour thin when compared to the power of German 8", 11" and 15" guns. Throw in the LW's 1941 anti-shipping units and the Soviet navy is ruined within a few days of sailing against the Swedes (who had a fleet of their own to add to German strength). Two 1911 BBs and newish CA are not going to last long. Swedens entry into the war is all but guaranteed if the the Soviet navy starts sinking its merchantmen in the Baltic.

        Its a non-starter.
        The Purist

        Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

        Comment


        • #19
          The rival forces;

          The German fleet under the command of Admiral Claasen and headquartered in Kiel, had the following forces at its disposal for Barbarossa:

          Battleships: Schlesien and Schleswig-Holstein (they did not participate in any attacks though)
          Submarines: 22nd U-Bootflotilla, Korvettenkapitän Ambrosius commanding (U140, 142, 144, 145, and 149)
          Minesweeper group: Grille, Preussen, Skagerrak and Versailles
          Minesweeper group Nord: 5th, 15th, 17th, 18th and 31st Sweeper Flotillas
          Sperrbrecher group: 6th, 8th and 138th
          Submarine chasers: 11th Submarine chaser flotilla, 11th and 12th Räumbooteflotilla
          Naval Group "D": Minesweeper group "Cobra", 1st Torpedoboat flotilla (S26, 39, 40, 101, 102, and 103) 5th Torpedoboat flotilla (S27, 28, 29, 45 and 47), Half of the 5th minesweeper flotilla (R56, 57, 58, 60, 61 and 62), Base ships Carl Peters and Tsingtao, 3rd Finnish coastal partol flotilla (V304-308 and V310- 314), Ilmarinen, Väinämöinen, Hämeenmaa, Karjala, Turunmaa and Uusimaa, 3 submarines and some lesser ships

          The Red Fleet had;

          3rd Battle Group:
          Battleships: Marat and Oktyabraskaya Revolustiya
          Destroyers (flotilla leaders): Leningrad and Minsk
          Destroyers: Artyom, Engels, Jakov Sverdlov, Kalinin, Karl Marx, and Volodarsky

          Light Battle Group:
          Cruisers: Kirov and Maksim Gorkiy
          1st Destroyer Division: Gnevnoy, Grodnoy, Grozhjashtshy, Smetlivoy and Steregushtshy
          2nd Destroyer Division: Storozhevoy, Stoiky, Silnoy and Sereditoy

          But that list does not include any of the Light units, the kind that figure to prominently in the German list.

          I'll keep looking around.


          Edit- found Leningrad class DDs, not too shabby; 1937.
          5 x 5.1" guns, 2 x 3", 6 x 21" TT., 39 knots.

          Gromki class were pretty good too, all were in Baltic or White Sea fleets.
          1936-41.
          4 x 5.1" guns, 2 x 3" AA, 4 x 37mm, 1 x 20mm, 6 x 21" TT
          37 knots.

          Now I need to find out how many were where.
          Last edited by The Exorcist; 13 Apr 12, 00:03.
          "Why is the Rum gone?"

          -Captain Jack

          Comment


          • #20
            The Baltic naval campaining season ends in October/November when the harbours and inshore waterways freeze up, and does not start again until about April when the ice breaks up.

            Between the opening of Barbarrosa and the effective end of naval operations for that year, the Baltic fleet had the guts torn out of it. The losses in ships as a percent of active forces is simply staggering (call it 50% of major units).

            The Kriegsmarine started the war days before the Heer launched the ground assault by laying extensive minefields to protect the Swedish shipping route. Then they forward deployed into Finland and attacked aggressively in coordination with the land assault (Heer and Luftwaffe).

            Check the evacuation of Tallinn for an example of the struggles of the Soviet Baltic Fleet that first year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...ion_of_Tallinn
            Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics.

            Comment


            • #21
              As a Finn I would like to say that its more November/December, when the waterways freeze up. You can fairly easily conduct operation in the first half of November.

              Edit. I foun this! It's in Finnish, but look at page 23 (page 20 in document) as it shows when the harbour of Helsinki froze.
              http://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&rct=j&...32eXVWtjfICchw
              Last edited by Senorankka; 13 Apr 12, 08:45. Reason: Found something
              From Devastation - Knights Twilight Warhammer 40,000 Quest
              Rear Admiral Sander Van der Zee, Commander of Dutch Far East Theatre
              "There is never enough firepower!"

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                No.
                What I meant was that Murmansk could threaten Narvik and the Baltic fleet could threaten the direct route, to Swedish ore.
                Would the Soviets have been able to sortie from Murmansk and reach the North Sea undetected by Fw-200's and unmolested anti-shipping He-111's?

                Early detection would have given the German convoys the edge in avoiding contact I would have thought?

                Comment


                • #23
                  The Skagerrak and Kattegat were heavily mined with only narrow lanes for neutral traffic and the Germans themselves. With Denmark in German hands a sortie would have been impossible (politically as well as operationally).
                  The Purist

                  Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                    The Skagerrak and Kattegat were heavily mined with only narrow lanes for neutral traffic and the Germans themselves. With Denmark in German hands a sortie would have been impossible (politically as well as operationally).
                    I was thinking more along the lines of going up and around the top of Norway?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I might be missing something.

                      In order to go from Leningrad to Murmansk with the major units and their support forces you have to sail through the Baltic, past Denmark then north along the Norwegian coast to the Arctic. There is no way to bypass the Skagerrak or Kattegat
                      The Purist

                      Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        There is no reason for the Baltic fleet to even be concerned with Norway, there is an Arctic fleet as well, called the White Sea fleet.

                        Any transfers between the two would have to be smaller ships using the canals.
                        "Why is the Rum gone?"

                        -Captain Jack

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                          I might be missing something.

                          In order to go from Leningrad to Murmansk with the major units and their support forces you have to sail through the Baltic, past Denmark then north along the Norwegian coast to the Arctic. There is no way to bypass the Skagerrak or Kattegat
                          No sorry, I was skim reading at work and hadn't picked up on the fact that there were only destroyers, torpedo boats and minesweepers based in Murmansk in 41.

                          Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                          There is no reason for the Baltic fleet to even be concerned with Norway, there is an Arctic fleet as well, called the White Sea fleet.

                          Any transfers between the two would have to be smaller ships using the canals.
                          There was Northern Naval Flotilla that was re-designated the Northern Fleet in '37. In '41 the fleet had the princely sum of 8 destroyers and 15 subs. It was re-designated the White Sea Flotilla in August 41.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            As this is purely a 'what if' scenario from the outset, thread moved to Alternate Timelines.
                            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Red fleet was short of minesweepers and was essentially trapped by the heavy mine laying effort of the GErman and Finnish fleets right before the war.There is no way the Soviets would have risked their big ships in a suicidal sortie across the baltic.And if the ships did manage to breakout they would have attracted the full might of the Luftwaffe in Poland and based in Norway plus the finnish airforce.

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X