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  • Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
    Here is where you have a misconception. The USMC does not have to cause massive physical damage to the Wehrmacht in order for it to collapse.
    Yes they do, you seem to forget that the Allies had to effectively destroy Germany's capacity to wage war, but guess what, it didn't, ironically Germany in 1944 had in that year virtually outstripped production comparing to previous years, by 1944 Germany rather belatedly went into Total War footing, not to be confused with General War Footing.

    But now the USMC 2012 has to do the job vacated by the allies, it has to reduce the German war capacity to a level it can't cope with, it has to reduce the German lines of communications from factory to front lines, it then has to knock out just about every single airfield/airbase in Western Europe, just about shoot down every single German fighter launched, it has to knock out the vast bulk of the offensive capabilities of the ground forces, then on top of that and most importantly knock out every single U-Boat and other vessel within the Kreigsmarine.

    And they have to do that even before the ground forces can take the offensive. And pray to god they the USMC don't suffer heavy casualties in doing the fighting.

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    • Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
      Yes they do, you seem to forget that the Allies had to effectively destroy Germany's capacity to wage war.
      Capacity to wage war does not equal willingness to wage war. If I can destroy your willingness to fight, I don't have to destroy your capacity to fight. Remember Sun Tzu: To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

      Let me ask you a question:

      Who would win: 100 men armed with steel weapons vs 80,000 men armed with stone age weapons?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
        Capacity to wage war does not equal willingness to wage war. If I can destroy your willingness to fight, I don't have to destroy your capacity to fight. Remember Sun Tzu: To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

        Let me ask you a question:

        Who would win: 100 men armed with steel weapons vs 80,000 men armed with stone age weapons?
        So in essence what you are saying that once an FA/18 flies over the Channel Coast the Germans are going to surrender unwilling to defend their nation, that must be it.

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        • When do logistics break down?

          My central point and question is how far can the Marine Corps effectively operate before their supply lines are fatally compromoised. My thinking is about 200 miles, then you start fatally overextending the supply convoys to the hordes of undefeated infantry operating in Southern France.
          If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

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          • Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post

            Let me ask you a question:

            Who would win: 100 men armed with steel weapons vs 80,000 men armed with stone age weapons?
            Actually this isn't a good example. 80,000 clubs and thrown rocks will still beat 100 swords no matter how good the quality.....quantity has a quality all its own.

            Now 100 men armed with MMGs versus 80,000 armed with clubs and the Machine Guns will win most of the time.......
            Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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            • Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
              Actually this isn't a good example. 80,000 clubs and thrown rocks will still beat 100 swords no matter how good the quality.....quantity has a quality all its own.

              Now 100 men armed with MMGs versus 80,000 armed with clubs and the Machine Guns will win most of the time.......
              Yes it is...Pizzaro's invasion of the Incas basically saw a band of 100 men defeat the Incan army of 80,000. A decapitation strike on the Incan military leadership (Atahualpa and his generals) and the rest of their army basically lost their will to fight.

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              • Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                So in essence what you are saying that once an FA/18 flies over the Channel Coast the Germans are going to surrender unwilling to defend their nation, that must be it.
                No.
                Consider this. The Germans know what its like to be on the wrong end of an air strike. However, the airstike they are used to usually have the enemy drop a a lot of bombs in order to hit 1 target. Imagine the effect on their morale if the enemy they are facing can destroy a target with every bomb they deliver. It has the same effect of being on a sniper's scope.

                The USMC does not need to fight and beat the entirety of the German military, but beat a small portion, preferrable the SS formations, so throughly that it takes the fight out of the rest. In the Korean war, the US military called it "bug out" fever. The physical damage the Chinese inflicted on the US 8th Army was nominal compared to the psychological damage inflicted. As a result, the 8th Army basically ran all the way to Seoul.

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                • Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                  My central point and question is how far can the Marine Corps effectively operate before their supply lines are fatally compromoised. My thinking is about 200 miles, then you start fatally overextending the supply convoys to the hordes of undefeated infantry operating in Southern France.
                  You fail to consider that these undefeated infantry are cut off from their chain of command and do not have situational awareness. They will not know where the USMC LOC are unless by accident. By then, the forces they can assemble are pretty much ad hoc and will be no greater than battalion strength. It is an annoyance not a threat.

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                  • Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                    My central point and question is how far can the Marine Corps effectively operate before their supply lines are fatally compromoised. My thinking is about 200 miles, then you start fatally overextending the supply convoys to the hordes of undefeated infantry operating in Southern France.
                    Who says they would be undefeated?

                    Dispersion patterns of units was less in 1944 than today.

                    Accuracy and combat power of air and artillery munitions is hugely multiplied.

                    Units fight to the last man only when they have to. Give them somewhere to run and someone to surrender to and the biggest challenge facing the Marines is how to feed and house all the prisoners.
                    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                    George Mason
                    Co-author of the Second Amendment
                    during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                      Who says they would be undefeated?

                      Dispersion patterns of units was less in 1944 than today.

                      Accuracy and combat power of air and artillery munitions is hugely multiplied.

                      Units fight to the last man only when they have to. Give them somewhere to run and someone to surrender to and the biggest challenge facing the Marines is how to feed and house all the prisoners.
                      And hope like hell those CLOAKS OF INVISIBILITIES work.

                      As you have stated previously those USMC 2012 can land in Normandy and within two weeks march into Berlin without ever seeing their enemy face to face. I have never ever known that the USMC 2012 to be trained by the best magicians in the world.

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                      • Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                        And hope like hell those CLOAKS OF INVISIBILITIES work.

                        As you have stated previously those USMC 2012 can land in Normandy and within two weeks march into Berlin without ever seeing their enemy face to face. I have never ever known that the USMC 2012 to be trained by the best magicians in the world.
                        Where did I say that?

                        You apparantly have claimed that the USMC would have to fight head on meeting engagements with every single German battalion which would be fully manned, equipped, trained, in place and of high morale. I and others have pointed, using modern military historical examples out how this is not the case.

                        I repeat. You are not sufficiently educated in modern tactics, operational art, logisitics, strateigc warfare, or even WW2 Wermacht details as applicable to this thread. You don't undersdtand at all how modern warfare works. Period.
                        Last edited by Cyberknight; 09 May 12, 12:51.
                        "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                        George Mason
                        Co-author of the Second Amendment
                        during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                          6. I would expect the modern Marines forces to be in Berlin in weeks or a couple of months at the outside.
                          In a way you did!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                            Where did I say that?

                            You apparantly have claimed that the USMC would have to fight head on meeting engagements with every single German battalion which would be fully manned, equipped, trained, in place and of high morale. I and others have pointed, using modern military historical examples out how this is not the case.

                            I repeat. You are not sufficiently educated in modern tactics, operational art, logisitics, strateigc warfare, or even WW2 Wermacht details as applicable to this thread. You don't undersdtand at all how modern warfare works. Period.
                            I may not be sufficiently educated but i do know one thing a Wehrmacht 1944 bullet can kill or maim a USMC 2012.

                            I do know that a 20/30mm Wehrmacht 1944 cannon shell can cause devestating damage to FA/18 if hit in the right location or kills the pilot, i do know that 88mm and 105mm anti-aircraft can shoot down KC-130 Tankers, i do know that 20mm cannon can destroy any helicopter that happens to present itself as a target.

                            I at least appreciate even with my lack of sufficient education that your support ships can be sunk by 1944 era torps, and that your 50 or so ships have to be permanently placed in close proximaty to support the efforts of your ground troops, even with the best ASW systems you need to be lucky every single time agains the 400+ U-Boats, and hundreds more Torp capable vessles, or do you forget what happened to USS Cole in Yemen.

                            They don't even have to take out every ship, only a few ships will need to be sunk as little as 10 ships would just about finish off the invasion, a Helicopter Landing Ship or two, add a fleet refueler, two or three supply ships, and most vital of all a Hospital ship or two. This puts pressure on all other ships surgical rooms to treat the many wounded.

                            I may not have sufficient education, but i know one thing in warfare people get killed, you aparently don't.

                            Comment


                            • Don't want to get involved in this silly thread (already did with Roddoss' Kursk one a year or two ago) but why on earth would a tanker asset be anywhere near where it could be hit by 88 or 105 fire, especially in this small of a theater? That's not how refuel ops work.
                              Кто там?
                              Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                              Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

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                              • Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                                I may not be sufficiently educated but i do know one thing a Wehrmacht 1944 bullet can kill or maim a USMC 2012.

                                I do know that a 20/30mm Wehrmacht 1944 cannon shell can cause devestating damage to FA/18 if hit in the right location or kills the pilot, i do know that 88mm and 105mm anti-aircraft can shoot down KC-130 Tankers, i do know that 20mm cannon can destroy any helicopter that happens to present itself as a target.

                                I at least appreciate even with my lack of sufficient education that your support ships can be sunk by 1944 era torps, and that your 50 or so ships have to be permanently placed in close proximaty to support the efforts of your ground troops, even with the best ASW systems you need to be lucky every single time agains the 400+ U-Boats, and hundreds more Torp capable vessles, or do you forget what happened to USS Cole in Yemen.

                                They don't even have to take out every ship, only a few ships will need to be sunk as little as 10 ships would just about finish off the invasion, a Helicopter Landing Ship or two, add a fleet refueler, two or three supply ships, and most vital of all a Hospital ship or two. This puts pressure on all other ships surgical rooms to treat the many wounded.

                                I may not have sufficient education, but i know one thing in warfare people get killed, you aparently don't.
                                That is right up there with torpedo boats and minesweepers assuring the success of Operation Seawolf.
                                "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                                George Mason
                                Co-author of the Second Amendment
                                during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

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