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  • #91
    Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
    Thank you for a wonderful insight of Sun Tzu.

    I was talking to a group of vets recently returned from Afghanistan and i actually asked them about the scenario that we are talking about, meaning the 1944 Wehrmacht v 2012 USMC and the background.

    I asked them who would win, well they knew very well the strengths and weaknesses of both sides and they concluded that the USMC would lose. I asked them why?

    They pointed that even with the advantage of technology and given that the Germans suffer 50% loss of entrenched positions at Normandy, the USMC landing parties will still come under sustained fire, just to establish a beachead, this is where the casualties will come from, they will land in protection, but most will disembark from vehicles to push forward, this is where thet are most vulnerable, the group concluded that in the first 24hrs the USMC will lose 2,000 to 3,000 dead, add another 10,000 wounded, this is before the USMC landing troops are in a position to even attempt to breakout, the amount of dead and wounded will overload the operating theatres on board the offshore naval vessels, almost half of available assets would be consigned to medi evac, helicopters, hovercrafts, Amphibious landing vehicles.

    From this point on the whole USMC has to constantly reassign troops from other services to keep a constant number of ground troops, they will have no choice but divert men and materiels from the rear echelon. This means as each day comes and goes and more and more men and women are killed and wounded the USMC will have shift more and more men and women from the rear to the front, at some point we will have desk jockey's and pen pushes on the front.

    Remember the USMC does not have the luxury of having millions of troops as reserves, but 250,000 that is it, the whole sheebang, the whole nine yards, enchelada (sic) and every man and woman killed can't be replaced, every man and woman wounded is out of the picture, every helicopter that has to be used in medievac can't be diverted to combat and that is just the ground war. Not only that but for every piece of equipment that is damaged and or destroyed can't be replaced, the USMC has a finite resource, as for tanks, yes the USMC has an absolute advantage over their German counterparts, but if this was a battle of attritian the Germans can afford to lose 25 to 1 in tanks and for every Abrahms tank destroyed or damaged is one they can't replace, soft skin vehicles are vulnerable to German mines, they don't have to inflict total destruction of the vehicle, but to make them unrepairable or in military jargon ecconomic write offs.

    For every man and woman killed and injured, for every helicopter, transport aircraft, tank, and other vehicle is one that can't be replaced, the Wehrmacht can afford 50% losses but the USMC can't.
    Are you seriously painting a repeat of Overlord with jets and helicopters being the only difference? Do you think that the Marines are simply going in a frontal assault on the beaches after an innaccurate ship and high level aerial bombardment?

    So your sources claim that the US modern forces would lose the same number in 24 hours as on D Day 1944? Either they know nothing about modern operational warfare or this is made up. The funny thing is that these were the kinds of casualty figures that detractors claimed that the US would face against Iraq in 1991 and again in the Thunder Run to Baghdad.

    You seemingly do not understand modern battlefield replacement, how spares make up part of a military inventory, the incredible combat multipler effect of modern munitions, tempo and speed of advance, night and all weather capability, disruption of unit integrity, command and control, and a host of other modern war fighting innovations.

    This does not even discuss the fact that the 1944 British Army will still be around to garrison the places taken by assault, move supplies and otherwise cover flanks,etc.

    The limited numbers of modern forces will certainly affect targets, missions and routes but you clearly have no idea how different military operations are today.
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
      Not sure what its got to do with Vietanm. But the North met their objectives the U.S did not. The US government did not wish to prosecute the war to its logical conclusion, north of the border so the the North acted accordingly...
      Just so.
      "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
      George Mason
      Co-author of the Second Amendment
      during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Nebfer View Post
        This might be interesting.
        The Entirety of the current (2012) USMC finds it self prepping for a invasion of German occupied Europe. As of May 1944. Facing them however is the full strength of the German military, to enable their full attention to the marines all other players have been removed (I.e. Russia is no longer a issue / surrendered a few months back or what naught).

        Basically this is a full up USMC (all of it as of 2012) vs the entirety of the German Military as of mid 1944.

        Out side of transports no USN ships are present.

        Situation 1 would entail the USMC in England with them prepping for a invasion, situation 2 involves them already on the mainland. With the Germans redeploying their forces as fast as they can (assume they have been doing this for about 2 months already)
        The marines have sufficient supply's with them for the better part of a year.

        So can the some 240,000 Marines defeat the ~9 million strong German military?

        A few questions, what can the Germans do to counter the Abrams? I have heard of a few sources indicating that the rear is weak to 14.5mm rounds? Also I seen a few sources indicate that some of the rarer portions of the side armor might be vulnerable to WW2 era rounds (armor under 150mm LOS).

        Also due to the supposed weak rear armor would it be possible for a panzerschreck to penetrate it?
        Cyberknight

        You have created a strawman in your last answer.

        The OP clearly states that the USMC 2012 takes on the entire German Wehrmacht 1944 and operates out of Britain and has landed in Europe.

        As the the OP states clearly that is only the USMC and has clearly stated that "all other players have been removed".

        Meaning that it is the USMC 2012 alone, they get absolutely no help from any outside source such as the 1944 British Army period, they do not get any help from either RAF or USAAF.

        It clearly states that the USMC 2012 has to rely on its own inventory and can not be help from any other source.

        So your Strawman about the USMC 2012 getting help from the 1944 British Army is out of the question.

        Also my interpretation is that other European Theatres have been removed, meaning that the Wehrmacht 1944 (all 9,000,000 and war assets) only concentrates on the USMC 2012 (all 250,000 and its war assets).

        I still get the feeling that you believe that a USMC 2012 trooper can't be killed by a Wehrmacht 1944 bullet, you honestly believe that the USMC 2012 will only fight a clinical, sterile technological battle from a distance and that they (USMC 2012) will not actually fight a face to face close action battle.

        The Iraqi Armed forces 1991/2003 on their best day could never beat the German Army of any period on their worst day.
        Last edited by Roddoss72; 29 Apr 12, 21:25.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
          The Iraqi Armed forces 1991/2003 on their best day could never beat the German Army of any period on their worst day.
          Oh, yes the Aryan race really showed those "Untermenschen" Allies in the 1940s how immune they were to "mongrel" armies.
          "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
          George Mason
          Co-author of the Second Amendment
          during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
            Who said that the Marines were not going to suffer casualties? War is Hell. During WW2 of all the opponents the uS and UK faced, ironically it was Germany which most closely adhered to the Geneva conventions. The Japanese, and later North Koreans, VC, nor North Vietnamese nor later terrorists did not. So the "unadulterated butchery" issue does not apply.

            Manstein, Rommel and Guderian with their radio commo jammed or compromised, their air traffic interdicted, their road and rail traffic immobile as the usual night travel methods don't work could take over no real unified command. Imagine the Rommel strafing incident with every senior German military commander who attempts to reach the front. Again I refer to the two Gulf Wars.

            The modern Marines have the advantage of knowing history. They know which generals were more ammenable to a negotiated. sttlement. On the subject of unconditinal surrender, with Stalin having already negotiated a cease fire, unconditional surrender no longer necessarily remains the optimal solution.

            With all due respect, given te conditions that the Marines would be faced with, a quick and dirty cessation of hostilities because the German offensive combat capability was destroyed would be acceptable. So many of the military decisions made in 1944-45 were based around the politics of Soviet intentions and desires. With the USSR having settled with the Nazi regime, post war European stability is not the main priority. It is about killing Hitler and making Germany surrender. I believe this could be quickly accomplished by the entire USMC supplied for a year.
            I highly doubt that alone the USMC could've capitulated all of Germany in 1944. The USMC would have superior training but still would face superior training and determination. By number and tech advances alone, they could win with heavy losses against the war-exhausted Wehrmacht, but again, it would not be easy at all.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Ricthofen View Post
              I highly doubt that alone the USMC could've capitulated all of Germany in 1944. The USMC would have superior training but still would face superior training and determination. By number and tech advances alone, they could win with heavy losses against the war-exhausted Wehrmacht, but again, it would not be easy at all.
              The Wermacht of 1944 did not have superior training to the USMC of 2012. The Wermacht of 1944 did not have superior combat experience to the USMC of 2012. By 1944 the contemporary Allied forces were as good as the Germans.

              The number of dead that Germany had suffered by 1944 and the consequent destruction of German infrastructure made all but Hitler's inner circle quite willing to end the war.

              The German surrender of 1945 was not the result of all military units being destroyed. It resulted from Hitler committing suicide and the remaining leadership, surrendering.

              Look, I have gamed a number of old vs. new scenatios over the years and the fact is that the abiity to of modern forces to prevent enemies from moving in large numbers destroy them if they sit still is incredible. Starving out of supply formations at half combat strength willingly surrender when ordered from on high and sometimes do it without such orders.

              Not being easy and heavy losses, still equal a win for the Marins, although I doubt that losses will be that high.
              "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
              George Mason
              Co-author of the Second Amendment
              during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                The Wermacht of 1944 did not have superior training to the USMC of 2012. The Wermacht of 1944 did not have superior combat experience to the USMC of 2012. By 1944 the contemporary Allied forces were as good as the Germans.

                The number of dead that Germany had suffered by 1944 and the consequent destruction of German infrastructure made all but Hitler's inner circle quite willing to end the war.

                The German surrender of 1945 was not the result of all military units being destroyed. It resulted from Hitler committing suicide and the remaining leadership, surrendering.

                Look, I have gamed a number of old vs. new scenatios over the years and the fact is that the abiity to of modern forces to prevent enemies from moving in large numbers destroy them if they sit still is incredible. Starving out of supply formations at half combat strength willingly surrender when ordered from on high and sometimes do it without such orders.

                Not being easy and heavy losses, still equal a win for the Marins, although I doubt that losses will be that high.
                Yes, the Allies were equal because Germany lost most of its good fighting forces. It was mostly militia, invalids, or conscripts on the Western Front from 1944 on. It was less of 'the Allies became better' and more of 'the Axis got worse'. I would say though that the Wehrmacht's veterans in 1944 had vastly more experience than the 2012 USMC, the group itself having not fought a fully-trained, modernized conventional force since WW2 itself. The Wehrmacht got its experience fighting both the Allied and Soviet armies, extremely powerful conventional forces.

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                • #98
                  Logistics is achilles heel...

                  The Marines will not be able to run supplies from Normandy all the way to the German frontier. Simply do not have the air assets to protect the 7tons, nor the troop strength to garrison the supply lines. In this senario the uparmored trucks and humvees will most likey have been done away with and converted back to plastic doors and/or thin metal as normal. Roving platoons of German infantry will slaughter the supply convoys. This will force us into having to engage in urban combat to seize ports, negating much of our 21 century advantages. Having to seize a well defended city-even defended by a 1940's army- will grind up our troop strength. We do not have enough troops to leave on garrison details. Imagine the carnage that will occur when fighting in urban Germany with only a depleted 4 divisions. Landmines, snipers, mobile AT and AA will simply bleed the Marine Corps dry before they can destroy the German army in Germany. I think the only hope would be to arm the French and Belgian civilians to do occupation/supply line duties, advance along the coast and then into Germany. There are simply too many well trained enemy troops that can be utilized in irregular combat, impossible to hold the cities of Germany while advancing...
                  If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                    The Marines will not be able to run supplies from Normandy all the way to the German frontier. Simply do not have the air assets to protect the 7tons, nor the troop strength to garrison the supply lines. In this senario the uparmored trucks and humvees will most likey have been done away with and converted back to plastic doors and/or thin metal as normal. Roving platoons of German infantry will slaughter the supply convoys. This will force us into having to engage in urban combat to seize ports, negating much of our 21 century advantages. Having to seize a well defended city-even defended by a 1940's army- will grind up our troop strength. We do not have enough troops to leave on garrison details. Imagine the carnage that will occur when fighting in urban Germany with only a depleted 4 divisions. Landmines, snipers, mobile AT and AA will simply bleed the Marine Corps dry before they can destroy the German army in Germany. I think the only hope would be to arm the French and Belgian civilians to do occupation/supply line duties, advance along the coast and then into Germany. There are simply too many well trained enemy troops that can be utilized in irregular combat, impossible to hold the cities of Germany while advancing...
                    But this the crux of the problem especially with arming French and Belgian civillians as the OP clearly states and that "All other players have been removed" meaning that no other participants period, the USMC 2012 gets absolutely no help from anyone, they the USMC 2012 have to rely on what they currently have.

                    It is all wonderfull to have all that adavance technology and i have to admit advance training and techniques, the problem is that the ground component of the USMC 2012 has to basically suppress an enemy in France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, let not foget to out flank the Germans they the USMC 2012 will have no choice but to land troops in Southern France and Italy as well. This alone poses massive problems, the USMC frontline will be so weakened that German troops can effectively pour through the USMC 2012 front line, not only that the USMC 2012 will not be able to amass enough ground troops to effect encirclement of any decent size, at best they would be able to encircle battalion size units but not Brigade, Divisional, Corps, Armee, Army Groups and Theatre Commands.

                    Then there are the vulnerable air support units, the 1944 Luftwaffe will have a field day against the Helicopters, the USMC 2012 will have to effectivley destroy every airfield in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Germany. and Destroy every aircraft factory and then destroy every single german aircraft, destroy every single anti aircraft battery (from normal machine guns, 20mm, 37 mm, 50mm, 75mm, 88mm, 105mm battery), they will have to destroy every V1 site, V2 site, they will have to destroy every single U-Boat Pen, slip way etc.

                    Then they have to take on the capacity of the German Army to wage war meaning that the USMC 2012 has to clear the millions of landmines, destroy every gun emplacement, Artillery battery, anti-tank gun from anti-tank rifles to effect destroy the hundreds of thousands of vehicles, the 10's of thousands of guns, and then take on a probable ground army of 6 million.

                    Not only that the USMC 2012 will hope beyong God that they don't suffer any casualties, something Cyberknight refuses to acknowledge, he refuse to accept that to defeat the German Wehrmacht USMC 2012 men and women are going to get killed and wounded.

                    Also to finish off the USMC 2012 will have to effectively destroy every single vessel in the German Inventory, and pray beyond god that they don't suffer the same fate as what happened to the USS Cole, where a couple of men in a rubber inflatable placed a bomb onto the ship and almost sank the ship, now the limited support ships will come under intense attack from just about every U-Boat, E-Boat, S-Boat. A circa 1944 torpedoe can still sink a 2012 ship.

                    What i am saying that the USMC 2012 will have to destroy the entire German capacity to wage total war

                    Comment


                    • This feels like a stupid thread, but I'm still gonna put my say.
                      You can't fight a war with numbers alones. There simply won't be a place where the 240000 Marines will face-off the 9 million Wehrmacht soldiers at the same time. And now you have to consider in the factor of how many people are in combat-arms roles (infantry, armor, arty, etc). And during the real Normandy campaign, the Germans didn't have 9 million soldiers available since a lot were on the Eastern Front. However since you say that the Corps is alone in this, than we'll assume that there is a manpower availability of 9 million. But on the other hand, you can consider how many more Marines can be recruited from the US.

                      If the Marines were using modern technology, the Germans won't stand a chance. They'll simply be pulverised by modern the modern weapons (I'm ready to bet that even the M72 can punch a hole into the frotal armour of a Tiger II, if not the AT4 definately will do the job). And not just weapons, but also surveillance systems. The Germans will simply have nowhere to hide with all the radar systems and FLIR systems that will be going on. Marines also have access to NVGs, which will allow them to own the night, and whoever owns the night owns the battlefield. The Marines will also have full control of the air. And the Germans simply won't be able to do sh*t: the Luftwaffe will be shout out of the sky while AAA will hardly able to destroy any fast flying jets. Especially if those were used at night. Helicopters will also come in extremely handy as it will be able to deploy and support troops in a small amount of time. These rotary aircraft are perhaps the only aircraft that will be vulnerable to AAA.

                      By 1944, most of the German military was in a poorly trained state due to the rushing demands of war. Yes, you had great soldiers like Michael Wittmann, but for every one of them, there was perhaps 1000 or even 10000 poorly trained, inexperienced draftee. And if the US properly uses its airpower, than the Germans might experience huge amounts of defections in the same way as the Iraqis did in 1991.

                      Comment


                      • Germany would all so have a lot of combat veterans. All so I see the USMC logistics struggling. The USMC can not fight a entire front. Yes where there front line solders are in battle they will win. But they will be encircled and cut off. The USMC armor and artillery with out fuel or ammo is useless.
                        you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                        CPO Mzinyati

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                        • Can't stretch supply lines from the channel to Berlin...

                          I don't see the USMC 2012, under the senario limitations, being able to support operations (on the ground-where it counts) more than a few hundred miles beyond the channel ports supply lines into Germany, probably not beyond the Rhine. Germany 1944 is NOT Iraq, you will have to actually root out and garrison the cities...

                          Where the Germans attempt to attack in a conventional manner they will be brutally destroyed and achieve little more than trading bodies for bullets. They'll adopt a defensive stratedgy on the ground and try to grind up our advance. The further beyond the Rhine, the heavier the destruction of my motor T bretheren until logistical support collapses and further military operations become impracticle. The Luftwaffe and AA will attrit the helicopter arm away, but will be immolated by the 200 fixed wing aircraft and modern AA. I think the brutal number of sorties required of them will cause the fixed wing arm to litterally fall apart before a year is out...

                          So be my tin-star general opinion, what say you?
                          Last edited by american1975; 03 May 12, 00:51.
                          If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

                          Comment


                          • You need to look at the modern Marines as an organization and how the operate deep withing holstile territory in Afghanistan today.

                            The idea of "fronts' with static lines of combat operations consisting of battalons facing off does not exist any longer.

                            If one accept the ridiculous "reducto ad absurdium" premise that there are no British, French, Beligians or Dutch forces to help, then there are no innocents to get in the way either. Apparantly the aliens who set the stupid version of the scenario up, as opposed to the interesting one, depopulated everything between Scandanavia and Germany.

                            This makes an easier situation for the moderns by far. The ability to target large areas or individual units even in bunkers, isolating or disrupting them while a major force advances on the center of gravity has been combat proven. We have done it in the 21st century already.

                            Yes there will be setbacks, casualties and it won't be perfect. The modern Marines still win.
                            Last edited by Cyberknight; 02 May 12, 10:52.
                            "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                            George Mason
                            Co-author of the Second Amendment
                            during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                              You need to look at the modern Marines as an organization and how the operate deep withing holstile territory in Afghanistan today.

                              The idea of "fronts' with static lines of combat operations consisting of battalons facing off does not exist any longer.

                              If one accept the ridiculous "reducto ad absurdium" premise that there are no British, French, Beligians or Dutch forces to help, then there are no innocents to get in the way either. Apparantly the aliens who set the stupid version of the scenario up, as opposed to the interesting one, depopulated everything between Scandanavia and Germany.

                              This makes an easier situation for the moderns by far. The ability to target large areas or individual units even in bunkers, isolating or disrupting them while a major force advances on the center of gravity has been combat proven. We have done it in the 21st century already.

                              Yes there will be setbacks, casualties and it won't be perfect. The modern Marines still win.
                              I know it is frowned upon when discussing history to interject personal experience, but I was a tiny cog in OIF1, from the invasion to my units July withdrawl date. Between my two tours in Iraq, we had specifically assigned air coverage on exactly two convoys. I was part of ridiculous 100+ truck convoys driving at night with lights blazing, to 10 or less convoys commanded by a lance corporal. We had NO maps or radios, they were reserved for our MP/convoy control escort (OIF1). We ran convoys from Kuwait all the way past Bagdad, and our unit recieved a Presidential Unit Citation for the longest supply missions in the history of Marine Corps motorized transport arm...I often wondered what would have happened if Sadam had mined the roads, blown his bridges, or what would happen to a 100 truck convoy with its lights on if they had the likes of one dedicated marine machine gun squad pop up on a berm...It took two months, in the face of virtually no real resistance, with either a joyfull or indifferent population in between, to take Bagdad. Fought in the open spaces of the desert where ALL our modern technology is optimized- not so in Europe of 1944.Without secure supply lines, you cannot wage protracted and extended warfare. You are not going to seize Berlin if you do not secure your supply lines by clearing and occupying the cities in between. All the Germans need do is adopt the "corned rat" strategedy of their pseudo allie in the Pacific and they'll grind up the USMC in urban combat. They do not have enough "boots on the ground", or planes in the air, to achieve the defeat of Nazi Germany, IMHO
                              If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                                I know it is frowned upon when discussing history to interject personal experience, but I was a tiny cog in OIF1, from the invasion to my units July withdrawl date. Between my two tours in Iraq, we had specifically assigned air coverage on exactly two convoys. I was part of ridiculous 100+ truck convoys driving at night with lights blazing, to 10 or less convoys commanded by a lance corporal. We had NO maps or radios, they were reserved for our MP/convoy control escort (OIF1). We ran convoys from Kuwait all the way past Bagdad, and our unit recieved a Presidential Unit Citation for the longest supply missions in the history of Marine Corps motorized transport arm...I often wondered what would have happened if Sadam had mined the roads, blown his bridges, or what would happen to a 100 truck convoy with its lights on if they had the likes of one dedicated marine machine gun squad pop up on a berm...It took two months, in the face of virtually no real resistance, with either a joyfull or indifferent population in between, to take Bagdad. Fought in the open spaces of the desert where ALL our modern technology is optimized- not so in Europe of 1944.Without secure supply lines, you cannot wage protracted and extended warfare. You are not going to seize Berlin if you do not secure your supply lines by clearing and occupying the cities in between. All the Germans need do is adopt the "corned rat" strategedy of their pseudo allie in the Pacific and they'll grind up the USMC in urban combat. They do not have enough "boots on the ground", or planes in the air, to achieve the defeat of Nazi Germany, IMHO
                                First of all thanks for your service.

                                Secondly, remembering the name of this forum, as an Armchair General, I contend that I would do it right.

                                My goal would not be to sieze Berlin. It wouldbe to kill Hitler and his high command after six weeks destroying German industry, transportation and major unit concentrations in France and Germany.

                                A strong localized raid on the essentially demolished capital to take out a bunker that we know the exact location of is the plan. I am not even convinced that Normandy would necessarily be the location of the land invasion since LCACs and helicopters don't necessarilyhave the same beach requirements.
                                "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                                George Mason
                                Co-author of the Second Amendment
                                during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

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