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  • #61
    Originally posted by Nebfer View Post
    Well I would think nukes kinda ruins the spirit of the concept, as it's an automatic win, with out even trying to see if they can win with out them.

    After all I was wondering if the modern USMC can beat the German army as of WW2 not see them nuke them into submission.

    Though is their any way for the Germans to deal with the M1 Abrams tanks the Marines use? The lighter vehicles the Marines have IIRC could be dealt with by PAK 40s and 88s. I heave heard that the rear armor on the Abrams could be penetrated by 14.5m weapons leading up to the possibility of the Germans getting rear shots, though I have also heard the side armor toward the rear is also not all that thick.

    Not only that but any tank can easily be knocked out by throwing a Molotov cocktain into the Engine intakes, or even circa 1944 landmines can wreck an Abrams track, an 88 migh not be able to take out an Abrams in either a front on or dide attack, however it can certainly create havoc again with their tracks.

    But if we disregard the Abrams, we then go to armoured fighting vehuicles, certainly these would be vulnerable to PAK 40's and 88s, even the soft skinns would be vulnerable to smaller calibre of weaponary.

    Choppers are likely going to have a some what difficult time, as we found out in Iraq even Apaches can be brought down by Small arms fire, and the Germans have plenty of small arms and loads of light AA guns.
    Recently in Afghanistan a chopper carrying US troops was brought down with a grenade launcher.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by niikeb View Post
      Typically all nukes on a carrier are guarded by USMC.
      Carriers don't carry nukes, the Marines are no longer stationed on carriers providing a guard force.
      "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
        You have already forgotten that Hitler was fully prepared to destroy Germany to the last man, woman and child, the allies knew that the only way to defeat Germany was to utterly defeat it, meaning nothing short of Unconditional Surrender, this would apply here as well the USMC would have to utterly destroy the German Nation, it's government, it's people and its Wehrmacht.
        I have not forgotten it at all. I am, however, a student of modern military doctrine, however.

        Vertical envelopment, blocking or destroying opposing communications, command and control, fixing enemy units to be destroyed by devastating fires, all were desinged to allow the bypassing of defending units in order to destroy enemy "centers of gravity" without having to engage every defending unit. Hitler in this case is the center of graity.

        Germany without Hitler would be willing to surrender rather than be destroyed
        "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
        George Mason
        Co-author of the Second Amendment
        during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
          The USMC will have no choice but to get into a plain old fashioned slug fest, if it has to utterly defeat the German Nation, its Government, Its people and its Werhmacht, essentially it has to fight out of Normandy, through France, then onto Germany, then to Berlin, and hope in hell they suffer no casualties.
          You are wrong. The USMC can outmaneuver the Germans because they can move faster, kill further away with fewer troops and know where the enemy is while remaining unknown.
          "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
          George Mason
          Co-author of the Second Amendment
          during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

          Comment


          • #65
            A Rough Day to had.

            Time:15.30hrs
            Date: 10th June 1944
            Location: Somewhere in France.

            A group of 12 SS troops were standing by a bridge having a rest after travelling from Paris the night before. They had made what was supposed to be coffee and a well needed smoke.

            All of a sudden the commanding officer an SS lieutenant tells the other to be quiet, his keen sense of hearing can detect the sound of approaching helicopters, quickly the SS officer looks into his binoculars and sees the helicopters and instantly recognises them as Apaches so orders one of the SS troops to take the Machine Gun and hid behind the Stone Bridge and the other begin to split up in two man teams within the nearby house, sheds and other locations.

            At the right moment the single SS trooper opens fire on the leading Apache, and then ducks under the bridge. The USMC Pilots decide to take out this idiot and beging to come around the single farmhouse to get a better shot. Though the Pilots are cautious in their approach they are determined to get this guy.

            Finally the three Apaches circle the house and lead ship begin to line up its prey, as the minigun is lined up ready to fire, all of a sudden the lead ship dissappears in a massive explosion, as the second ship begins to veer off and it too suffers the sames fate, then followed by the third ship, the SS trooper that was used as bait crawled out from under the bridge, looking very relieved.

            The SS Officer congratulated the poor SS Trooper, looking quite rattled. He then gathered the rest of his unit and smiled and he had to report back to HQ to tell them that low flying helicopters were vulnerable to Panzerfausts.

            Within days of this the USMC began to lose many low flying helicopters to the Panzerfausts and Panzerscrecks.

            Then there was the raid from hell, the USMC launced a planned attack on Schweinfurt to destroy some of the ball bearing plants, and so they sent 12 FA/18's Hornets do do the job, well everything was going to plan that was until they began to cross the German border. The German radars that had not being knocked out had picked them up, the modern jamming equipment was used to jamming other modern radar units, but not these old sets, an oversight perhaps, but the they were being tracked and then as mentioned as they crossed the German border at 25,000 feet and at Mach 1.5 they thought they could not be touched, but that was until they ran headlong into some of the heaviest concentration of German Flak in the area.

            What happened was a lesson in that very fast objects flying through a shower of schrapnel is not conducive to flying, within seconds an FA/18 had injested steel schrapnel into its engines shredding the impellor blades and causing a catastophic engine disintergration, another FA/18 had a shell burst just 20 metres infront of and the soft surface of the Jet was shredded. One pilot managed to see another FA/18 cop a direct scrapnel hit on the front of the cockpit and all that was left of the pilot was blood spatter on the canopy, out of the 12 FA/18's that crossed the border 6 had been destroyed within minutes, the operation was cancelled, only 3 managed to return with some minor damage, the other three crashed on the way home.
            Last edited by Roddoss72; 19 Apr 12, 01:28.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
              Time:15.30hrs
              Date: 10th June 1944
              Location: Somewhere in France.

              A group of 12 SS troops were standing by a bridge having a rest after travelling from Paris the night before. They had made what was supposed to be coffee and a well needed smoke.

              All of a sudden the commanding officer an SS lieutenant tells the other to be quiet, his keen sense of hearing can detect the sound of approaching helicopters, quickly the SS officer looks into his binoculars and sees the helicopters and instantly recognises them as Apaches so orders one of the SS troops to take the Machine Gun and hid behind the Stone Bridge and the other begin to split up in two man teams within the nearby house, sheds and other locations.

              At the right moment the single SS trooper opens fire on the leading Apache, and then ducks under the bridge. The USMC Pilots decide to take out this idiot and beging to come around the single farmhouse to get a better shot. Though the Pilots are cautious in their approach they are determined to get this guy.

              Finally the three Apaches circle the house and lead ship begin to line up its prey, as the minigun is lined up ready to fire, all of a sudden the lead ship dissappears in a massive explosion, as the second ship begins to veer off and it too suffers the sames fate, then followed by the third ship, the SS trooper that was used as bait crawled out from under the bridge, looking very relieved.

              The SS Officer congratulated the poor SS Trooper, looking quite rattled. He then gathered the rest of his unit and smiled and he had to report back to HQ to tell them that low flying helicopters were vulnerable to Panzerfausts.

              Within days of this the USMC began to lose many low flying helicopters to the Panzerfausts and Panzerscrecks.

              Then there was the raid from hell, the USMC launced a planned attack on Schweinfurt to destroy some of the ball bearing plants, and so they sent 12 FA/18's Hornets do do the job, well everything was going to plan that was until they began to cross the German border. The German radars that had not being knocked out had picked them up, the modern jamming equipment was used to jamming other modern radar units, but not these old sets, an oversight perhaps, but the they were being tracked and then as mentioned as they crossed the German border at 25,000 feet and at Mach 1.5 they thought they could not be touched, but that was until they ran headlong into some of the heaviest concentration of German Flak in the area.

              What happened was a lesson in that very fast objects flying through a shower of schrapnel is not conducive to flying, within seconds an FA/18 had injested steel schrapnel into its engines shredding the impellor blades and causing a catastophic engine disintergration, another FA/18 had a shell burst just 20 metres infront of and the soft surface of the Jet was shredded. One pilot managed to see another FA/18 cop a direct scrapnel hit on the front of the cockpit and all that was left of the pilot was blood spatter on the canopy, out of the 12 FA/18's that crossed the border 6 had been destroyed within minutes, the operation was cancelled, only 3 managed to return with some minor damage, the other three crashed on the way home.
              Are you confusing this thread with the WW3 1946 thread in which the enemy has everything go perfectly and the US has nothing work at all?

              Scenario 1 might result in one Whiskey Cobra, as the USMC does not fly Apaches, taking minor damage while the SS are hosed down by the miniguns which home in on the IR signiture of the cigarettes and coffee heaters lit by SS troops. Your scenario indicates a lack of knowledge of the equipment and capabilities of the Marines as well as those of Panzerfausts and Panzerschreks.

              Scenario 2 misunderstands the package doctrine of modern air to ground combat. The AAA suppression elements of the attack would use cluster munitions on the Triple A emplacemts following the preliminary recon of the Schweinfurt complex of factories.

              Presicision stand off missiles such as Mavericks and laser guided bombs would then target the actual processing, power and transportation elements at the complex.

              Of course the reason that only 12 Hornets are involved in the attack is that the ELINT units have determined that Hitler was in the Wolf's Lair and 72 fixed wing aircraft as well as a full Regiment of Heliborne Marines decapitate the leadeship of the Reich and have Erwin Rommel order the unconditional surrender of all remaining German forces.
              Last edited by Cyberknight; 19 Apr 12, 16:25.
              "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
              George Mason
              Co-author of the Second Amendment
              during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

              Comment


              • #67
                It'd be air power, superior numbers, and/or better tech and weapons that'd win the USMC the day, but not training or tactics.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Ricthofen View Post
                  It'd be air power, superior numbers, and/or better tech and weapons that'd win the USMC the day, but not training or tactics.
                  Training and tactics are specific to the forces available and the weapon systems utilized. To say that the WW2 Wermacht are as adept with their weapons and tactics as the moder Marines are with their own still makes them the defeated party.

                  Guys, seriously. Every Republican Guard battalion was not untrained or incapable of modern combined arms combat and the modern coalition forces creamed them.
                  "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                  George Mason
                  Co-author of the Second Amendment
                  during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                    Are you confusing this thread with the WW3 1946 thread in which the enemy has everything go perfectly and the US has nothing work at all?

                    Scenario 1 might result in one Whiskey Cobra, as the USMC does not fly Apaches, taking minor damage while the SS are hosed down by the miniguns which home in on the IR signiture of the cigarettes and coffee heaters lit by SS troops. Your scenario indicates a lack of knowledge of the equipment and capabilities of the Marines as well as those of Panzerfausts and Panzerschreks.

                    Scenario 2 misunderstands the package doctrine of modern air to ground combat. The AAA suppression elements of the attack would use cluster munitions on the Triple A emplacemts following the preliminary recon of the Schweinfurt complex of factories.

                    Presicision stand off missiles such as Mavericks and laser guided bombs would then target the actual processing, power and transportation elements at the complex.

                    Of course the reason that only 12 Hornets are involved in the attack is that the ELINT units have determined that Hitler was in the Wolf's Lair and 72 fixed wing aircraft as well as a full Regiment of Heliborne Marines decapitate the leadeship of the Reich and have Erwin Rommel order the unconditional surrender of all remaining German forces.
                    It was tongue in cheek, but on a serious note, your counter argument would be accurate. As for decpitating the leadership, thats fine but replacing one nazi maniac with another does not bode well, sometimes it is better if you don't get what you want, ot that Rommel may actually decide not to declare unconditional surrender but actually unleash his generals to do exactly what they were trained for instead of been constantly interfered with by Hitler, again don't wish for things if you don't know the rammifications..
                    Last edited by Roddoss72; 19 Apr 12, 21:09.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                      It was tongue in cheek, but on a serious note, your counter argument would be accurate. As for decpitating the leadership, thats fine but replacing one nazi maniac with another does not bode well, sometimes it is better if you don't get what you want, ot that Rommel may actually decide not to declare unconditional surrender but actually unleash his generals to do exactly what they were trained for instead of been constantly interfered with by Hitler, again don't wish for things if you don't know the rammifications..
                      That was main reason Allies did not try to assassinate Hitler, it was considered, but those in charge saw Hitler more as an hindrance than asset for Germany. Someone less fond of micromanaging affairs could have done much to efficiency of German forces.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Tiberius Duval View Post
                        That was main reason Allies did not try to assassinate Hitler, it was considered, but those in charge saw Hitler more as an hindrance than asset for Germany. Someone less fond of micromanaging affairs could have done much to efficiency of German forces.
                        I respectfully disagree as to the liklihood that a modern commander would follow this track. We now knowthings that the Allies did not in 1944.

                        The hindsight/knowledge available to a modern USMC commander about the large numbers of senior German officers involved in the famed "July 20 plot" to assassinate Hitler would, IMHO encourage the support of decapitation efforts.

                        Most Germans saw the war as lost by 1943 so the idea that everyone of the surviving commanders would rally behind Goebbels, as some have postulated, is one with which I have never agreed.
                        "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                        George Mason
                        Co-author of the Second Amendment
                        during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Maybe they would not rally behind any NSDAP bigshot, but even if high officers of army would have taken power they might have been somewhat against unconditional surrender. As those were the conditions for peace dictated by allies.

                          Maybe they would not have fought to as bitter end as Nazis, but nonetheless they would have fought. And maybe with better ability than under Hitler's micromanagement.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Tiberius Duval View Post
                            Maybe they would not rally behind any NSDAP bigshot, but even if high officers of army would have taken power they might have been somewhat against unconditional surrender. As those were the conditions for peace dictated by allies.

                            Maybe they would not have fought to as bitter end as Nazis, but nonetheless they would have fought. And maybe with better ability than under Hitler's micromanagement.
                            Absolutely agree, with Hitler in place units as small as Battlions had to get the Fuhrers permission to retreat, Manstein was sacked because he ordered retreats countermanding the Fuhrer. The Fuhrer meddled in just about every aspect of the Wehrmacht, the worse possible scenario is that the USMC launch a strike that kills the Fuhrer. So with that the likes Rommel, Manstein, Guderian and many other capable general officers take command.

                            As bad as the Taliban and other insurgeant groups have been, the modern USMC has never faced the sheer unadulterated butchery that the units of the Waffen SS and some Heer units were capable of.

                            The USMC still will have no choice but to get Germany into such a destructive state to force Unconditional Surrender, as good as they are, i doubt that the USMC can force 1944 Germany into Unconditional Surrender within 12 months and pray to god they do not suffer any casualties along the way.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                              Absolutely agree, with Hitler in place units as small as Battlions had to get the Fuhrers permission to retreat, Manstein was sacked because he ordered retreats countermanding the Fuhrer. The Fuhrer meddled in just about every aspect of the Wehrmacht, the worse possible scenario is that the USMC launch a strike that kills the Fuhrer. So with that the likes Rommel, Manstein, Guderian and many other capable general officers take command.

                              As bad as the Taliban and other insurgeant groups have been, the modern USMC has never faced the sheer unadulterated butchery that the units of the Waffen SS and some Heer units were capable of.

                              The USMC still will have no choice but to get Germany into such a destructive state to force Unconditional Surrender, as good as they are, i doubt that the USMC can force 1944 Germany into Unconditional Surrender within 12 months and pray to god they do not suffer any casualties along the way.
                              Who said that the Marines were not going to suffer casualties? War is Hell. During WW2 of all the opponents the uS and UK faced, ironically it was Germany which most closely adhered to the Geneva conventions. The Japanese, and later North Koreans, VC, nor North Vietnamese nor later terrorists did not. So the "unadulterated butchery" issue does not apply.

                              Manstein, Rommel and Guderian with their radio commo jammed or compromised, their air traffic interdicted, their road and rail traffic immobile as the usual night travel methods don't work could take over no real unified command. Imagine the Rommel strafing incident with every senior German military commander who attempts to reach the front. Again I refer to the two Gulf Wars.

                              The modern Marines have the advantage of knowing history. They know which generals were more ammenable to a negotiated. sttlement. On the subject of unconditinal surrender, with Stalin having already negotiated a cease fire, unconditional surrender no longer necessarily remains the optimal solution.

                              With all due respect, given te conditions that the Marines would be faced with, a quick and dirty cessation of hostilities because the German offensive combat capability was destroyed would be acceptable. So many of the military decisions made in 1944-45 were based around the politics of Soviet intentions and desires. With the USSR having settled with the Nazi regime, post war European stability is not the main priority. It is about killing Hitler and making Germany surrender. I believe this could be quickly accomplished by the entire USMC supplied for a year.
                              "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                              George Mason
                              Co-author of the Second Amendment
                              during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                                Who said that the Marines were not going to suffer casualties? War is Hell. During WW2 of all the opponents the uS and UK faced, ironically it was Germany which most closely adhered to the Geneva conventions. The Japanese, and later North Koreans, VC, nor North Vietnamese nor later terrorists did not. So the "unadulterated butchery" issue does not apply.

                                Manstein, Rommel and Guderian with their radio commo jammed or compromised, their air traffic interdicted, their road and rail traffic immobile as the usual night travel methods don't work could take over no real unified command. Imagine the Rommel strafing incident with every senior German military commander who attempts to reach the front. Again I refer to the two Gulf Wars.

                                The modern Marines have the advantage of knowing history. They know which generals were more ammenable to a negotiated. sttlement. On the subject of unconditinal surrender, with Stalin having already negotiated a cease fire, unconditional surrender no longer necessarily remains the optimal solution.

                                With all due respect, given te conditions that the Marines would be faced with, a quick and dirty cessation of hostilities because the German offensive combat capability was destroyed would be acceptable. So many of the military decisions made in 1944-45 were based around the politics of Soviet intentions and desires. With the USSR having settled with the Nazi regime, post war European stability is not the main priority. It is about killing Hitler and making Germany surrender. I believe this could be quickly accomplished by the entire USMC supplied for a year.
                                With what force modern USMC could paralyse German road and rail traffic? Yes modern aircrafts are powerfull, but there simply are not numbers enough to paralyse traffic network, bomb out every landline connection and so on. One plane and pilot simply cannot do missions round the clock. Of course where they concentrate their efforst effects can be devastating, but can they concentrate on every German command facility and formation at same time? WW2 US airforce +RAF had thousands of planes, all kinds of bombers, fighter bombers, fighters and so on, they had numbers to strike all around, something modern USMC does not have.

                                But realistically speaking if you take Hitler out of picture, and throw doctrine of unconditional surrender out of window rulers of Germany might be quite ready to negotiate peace, especially if said rulers came from military high command.

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