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  • #46
    Originally posted by Nebfer View Post
    This might be interesting.
    The Entirety of the current (2012) USMC finds it self prepping for a invasion of German occupied Europe. As of May 1944. Facing them however is the full strength of the German military, to enable their full attention to the marines all other players have been removed (I.e. Russia is no longer a issue / surrendered a few months back or what naught).

    Basically this is a full up USMC (all of it as of 2012) vs the entirety of the German Military as of mid 1944.

    Out side of transports no USN ships are present.

    Situation 1 would entail the USMC in England with them prepping for a invasion, situation 2 involves them already on the mainland. With the Germans redeploying their forces as fast as they can (assume they have been doing this for about 2 months already)
    The marines have sufficient supply's with them for the better part of a year.

    So can the some 240,000 Marines defeat the ~9 million strong German military?

    A few questions, what can the Germans do to counter the Abrams? I have heard of a few sources indicating that the rear is weak to 14.5mm rounds? Also I seen a few sources indicate that some of the rarer portions of the side armor might be vulnerable to WW2 era rounds (armor under 150mm LOS).

    Also due to the supposed weak rear armor would it be possible for a panzerschreck to penetrate it?
    To be sure what the OP indicated.

    Well lets look at this shall we.

    1, The OP talks about the entirity of the 2012 USMC.

    2, The OP talks about the entire Wehrmacht circa 1944, including the Heer, Luftwaffe, the Kreigsmarine and the SS.

    3, The OP allows the full redeployment of the Wehrmacht westward after the end of hostilities with Russia, and has given them a 2 month head start.

    4, The OP clearly states the the USMC can use Britian as a base of operation (something i previously missed).

    5, The OP clearly states that the USMC can use transports ONLY, NO USN ships can be used, period.

    6, The OP states clearly that the USMC has enough supplies to last no more than 12 months, after that when they run out of supplies, they run out of supplies.

    7, This indicates that the USMC has no other option but has to totally self reliant on what it starts out with and has to force Germany into unconditional surrender within a year and hope like hell that they suffer no losses.

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    • #47
      On the air war: All the Marines need is jet fuel for their planes. So long as the aircraft is in flying condition it can take down anything in the German inventory simply by making a sonic pass on it at close range. The sonic shock wave will destroy the German aircraft.
      Doing that through a bomber formation would be devastating. No missiles, no guns, simply using speed and air mass as a weapon is enough.

      Comment


      • #48
        Just use are power to kill Hitler. Then watch has Germany collapses in to a civil war. Once the SS and Hitler's high command are dead(with help from USMC). Negotiate a end to the war with a more reasonable government.
        you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

        CPO Mzinyati

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Nichols View Post
          Two MEBs tied down 6 Divisions in 91 without firing a single round.
          German troops of any time period cannot be compared to Iraqi troops from any time period.
          ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

          BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

          BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

          Comment


          • #50
            Here is something that no one has thought of and that is to make this scenario work those 2012 USMC troops would need to travel back in time to 1944.

            Thus the modern 2012 USMC would be in a lot of trouble from day one.

            It comes down to their equipment, just about all of the 2012 USMC relies on military satellites for their communications and battlefield situations, they rely heavily on the internet to relay information so computers can talk to each other, they work in a digital age of communications.

            Guess what in 1944 the only satellite was the moon, so none of the USMC would be able to gain up to the minute information on battlefield conditions via satellite technology. One aspect that the modern USMC would struggle is that they would not get information via GPS, also this would include co-ordination of troops on the ground, aircraft in the air and ships out to sea.

            Guess what in 1944 there is no internet, without an extensive internet (again you need orbital satellites for that) computer communication is out of the equation, many of the USMC internet reliant systems will shut down.

            Guess what in 1944 the world did not have digital communications, it was annolog, meaning that you need digital communication towers on the ground and communication satellites in space to help relay information/communications.

            Guess what in 1944 the world does not have US tracking stations to which the modern US Military is so heavily reliant upon for current up to date information of battlefield situations.

            It is a lot harder than folks think it is.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
              Here is something that no one has thought of and that is to make this scenario work those 2012 USMC troops would need to travel back in time to 1944.

              Thus the modern 2012 USMC would be in a lot of trouble from day one.

              It comes down to their equipment, just about all of the 2012 USMC relies on military satellites for their communications and battlefield situations, they rely heavily on the internet to relay information so computers can talk to each other, they work in a digital age of communications.

              Guess what in 1944 the only satellite was the moon, so none of the USMC would be able to gain up to the minute information on battlefield conditions via satellite technology. One aspect that the modern USMC would struggle is that they would not get information via GPS, also this would include co-ordination of troops on the ground, aircraft in the air and ships out to sea.

              Guess what in 1944 there is no internet, without an extensive internet (again you need orbital satellites for that) computer communication is out of the equation, many of the USMC internet reliant systems will shut down.

              Guess what in 1944 the world did not have digital communications, it was annolog, meaning that you need digital communication towers on the ground and communication satellites in space to help relay information/communications.

              Guess what in 1944 the world does not have US tracking stations to which the modern US Military is so heavily reliant upon for current up to date information of battlefield situations.

              It is a lot harder than folks think it is.
              All correct points.
              you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

              CPO Mzinyati

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                To be sure what the OP indicated.

                Well lets look at this shall we.

                1, The OP talks about the entirity of the 2012 USMC.

                2, The OP talks about the entire Wehrmacht circa 1944, including the Heer, Luftwaffe, the Kreigsmarine and the SS.

                3, The OP allows the full redeployment of the Wehrmacht westward after the end of hostilities with Russia, and has given them a 2 month head start.

                4, The OP clearly states the the USMC can use Britian as a base of operation (something i previously missed).

                5, The OP clearly states that the USMC can use transports ONLY, NO USN ships can be used, period.

                6, The OP states clearly that the USMC has enough supplies to last no more than 12 months, after that when they run out of supplies, they run out of supplies.

                7, This indicates that the USMC has no other option but has to totally self reliant on what it starts out with and has to force Germany into unconditional surrender within a year and hope like hell that they suffer no losses.
                1. The entirity of the USMC means that noncombat ubnits can be converted into Rifle Companies because all Marines are riflement first.

                2. This just means a target rich environment for modern aircraft and artillery used by the Marines.

                3. Same as 2 but with easier to destroy soft infantry units.

                4. The OP does not say that the the Royal Navy, RAF or British Army don't exist.

                5. The USMC are transported on specially designed amphibious assault ships which are all manned by the US Navy. They are Navy ships by definition.

                6. I would expect the modern Marines forces to be in Berlin in weeks or a couple of months at the outside.

                7. This requirement is made up out of whole cloth to try and create a false situation. There were no specifics on whether the Germans surrender unconditionally or just can no longer threaten their neighbors.
                "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                George Mason
                Co-author of the Second Amendment
                during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                  Here is something that no one has thought of and that is to make this scenario work those 2012 USMC troops would need to travel back in time to 1944.

                  Thus the modern 2012 USMC would be in a lot of trouble from day one.

                  It comes down to their equipment, just about all of the 2012 USMC relies on military satellites for their communications and battlefield situations, they rely heavily on the internet to relay information so computers can talk to each other, they work in a digital age of communications.

                  Guess what in 1944 the only satellite was the moon, so none of the USMC would be able to gain up to the minute information on battlefield conditions via satellite technology. One aspect that the modern USMC would struggle is that they would not get information via GPS, also this would include co-ordination of troops on the ground, aircraft in the air and ships out to sea.

                  Guess what in 1944 there is no internet, without an extensive internet (again you need orbital satellites for that) computer communication is out of the equation, many of the USMC internet reliant systems will shut down.

                  Guess what in 1944 the world did not have digital communications, it was annolog, meaning that you need digital communication towers on the ground and communication satellites in space to help relay information/communications.

                  Guess what in 1944 the world does not have US tracking stations to which the modern US Military is so heavily reliant upon for current up to date information of battlefield situations.

                  It is a lot harder than folks think it is.
                  Radar, excelent radios, radio jamming, night vision, long range optics on lot of vehicles and aircraft will do just fine against an army in the 1940s.

                  An army is more than just a lot of men. Unit integrity falls apart quickly when lots of casualties are taken quickly. It is more recently called shock and awe.

                  Strategic and tactical munitions are far more accurate and destructive than the WW2 counterparts.

                  It doesn't have to be easy and the modern forces will take casualties. It is assumed that one of the best trained and combat tested modern forces of the 21st century are doing this.
                  "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                  George Mason
                  Co-author of the Second Amendment
                  during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I suspect there will be a preference for night operations as this will provide the USMC with the greatest advantage. What they do not want to do is get caught in a plain old-fashioned slugging match.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                      1. The entirity of the USMC means that noncombat ubnits can be converted into Rifle Companies because all Marines are riflement first.

                      Just make sure we are on the same plane here, were are talking about 250,000 (the entirity of the USMC) vs 9,000,000. So here is a question, out of those 250,000 would be actually groundpounder

                      2. This just means a target rich environment for modern aircraft and artillery used by the Marines.

                      This also means that the USMC can't be drawn into any real close combat, also it means that with such a finite resource if the USMC has significant losses on the Ground this mean that to maintain ground troops many within the support units need to be reassigned to infantry duty, this affects the overall effectivelness of the USMC, at what point if things go wrong does the USMC begin to divert aircrews to ground duties

                      3. Same as 2 but with easier to destroy soft infantry units.

                      You are stating that circa 2012 USMC troops can not be killed by circa 1944 bullets

                      4. The OP does not say that the the Royal Navy, RAF or British Army don't exist.

                      No but rules out them though.

                      5. The USMC are transported on specially designed amphibious assault ships which are all manned by the US Navy. They are Navy ships by definition.

                      Agreed but only transoprts can be use, no other USN ships can be used

                      6. I would expect the modern Marines forces to be in Berlin in weeks or a couple of months at the outside.

                      I seriously doubt that, but you are welcome to your opinion

                      7. This requirement is made up out of whole cloth to try and create a false situation. There were no specifics on whether the Germans surrender unconditionally or just can no longer threaten their neighbors.
                      You have already forgotten that Hitler was fully prepared to destroy Germany to the last man, woman and child, the allies knew that the only way to defeat Germany was to utterly defeat it, meaning nothing short of Unconditional Surrender, this would apply here as well the USMC would have to utterly destroy the German Nation, it's government, it's people and its Wehrmacht.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                        I suspect there will be a preference for night operations as this will provide the USMC with the greatest advantage. What they do not want to do is get caught in a plain old-fashioned slugging match.
                        The USMC will have no choice but to get into a plain old fashioned slug fest, if it has to utterly defeat the German Nation, its Government, Its people and its Werhmacht, essentially it has to fight out of Normandy, through France, then onto Germany, then to Berlin, and hope in hell they suffer no casualties.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Most interesting thread to read. Don't have anything of value to say, but way to go guys.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                            Here is something that no one has thought of and that is to make this scenario work those 2012 USMC troops would need to travel back in time to 1944.

                            Thus the modern 2012 USMC would be in a lot of trouble from day one.

                            It comes down to their equipment, just about all of the 2012 USMC relies on military satellites for their communications and battlefield situations, they rely heavily on the internet to relay information so computers can talk to each other, they work in a digital age of communications.

                            Guess what in 1944 the only satellite was the moon, so none of the USMC would be able to gain up to the minute information on battlefield conditions via satellite technology. One aspect that the modern USMC would struggle is that they would not get information via GPS, also this would include co-ordination of troops on the ground, aircraft in the air and ships out to sea.

                            Guess what in 1944 there is no internet, without an extensive internet (again you need orbital satellites for that) computer communication is out of the equation, many of the USMC internet reliant systems will shut down.

                            Guess what in 1944 the world did not have digital communications, it was annolog, meaning that you need digital communication towers on the ground and communication satellites in space to help relay information/communications.

                            Guess what in 1944 the world does not have US tracking stations to which the modern US Military is so heavily reliant upon for current up to date information of battlefield situations.

                            It is a lot harder than folks think it is.
                            If it is the Marine Corps 2012 all of the above would be included including amphibious shipping.

                            If it was Marine Corps 1944, none of the above would be included.
                            "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              So, The USMC currently has 238 F-18s...

                              Which can carry Nukes...

                              How many B61/B83 Nuclear bombs would they have access to?
                              Typically all nukes on a carrier are guarded by USMC.
                              Not to mention bases in Diego Garcia, Germany, and South Korea...

                              The current USMC has access to at least at least several stockpiles of Nuclear weapons, no cruise or ballistic missiles, but conventional gravity bombs are there.

                              Even 10 Nuclear Bombs would ruin someones day. Stick one into Berlin, take out Hitler and the High Command, then wait for someone to sue for peace.

                              From a battlefield perspective, if the Germans had 2 fronts worth of troops pouring into France, packing so many troops into a staging area would be pretty vicious.

                              The psychological damage alone of 10-100 nukes would be devastating on German moral.
                              Last edited by niikeb; 17 Apr 12, 12:38.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by niikeb View Post
                                So, The USMC currently has 238 F-18s...

                                Which can carry Nukes...

                                How many B61/B83 Nuclear bombs would they have access to?
                                Typically all nukes on a carrier are guarded by USMC.
                                Not to mention bases in Diego Garcia, Germany, and South Korea...

                                The current USMC has access to at least at least several stockpiles of Nuclear weapons, no cruise or ballistic missiles, but conventional gravity bombs are there.

                                Even 10 Nuclear Bombs would ruin someones day. Stick one into Berlin, take out Hitler and the High Command, then wait for someone to sue for peace.

                                From a battlefield perspective, if the Germans had 2 fronts worth of troops pouring into France, packing so many troops into a staging area would be pretty vicious.

                                The psychological damage alone of 10-100 nukes would be devastating on German moral.

                                Well I would think nukes kinda ruins the spirit of the concept, as it's an automatic win, with out even trying to see if they can win with out them.

                                After all I was wondering if the modern USMC can beat the German army as of WW2 not see them nuke them into submission.

                                Though is their any way for the Germans to deal with the M1 Abrams tanks the Marines use? The lighter vehicles the Marines have IIRC could be dealt with by PAK 40s and 88s. I heave heard that the rear armor on the Abrams could be penetrated by 14.5m weapons leading up to the possibility of the Germans getting rear shots, though I have also heard the side armor toward the rear is also not all that thick.

                                Choppers are likely going to have a some what difficult time, as we found out in Iraq even Apaches can be brought down by Small arms fire, and the Germans have plenty of small arms and loads of light AA guns.

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