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Germany 1944 vs modern USMC

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  • #31
    Just so you and I are on the same page, you're talking to an 0481 Redpatcher. I'm fully aware of the capabilities and limitations of a MEU and MEB in the amphibious arena. My argument has little to do with the ability of the USMC to break into Fortress Europe from any point they wish, from the Dardanelles clean around to Denmark. My argument has everything to do with the USMC simply not being able to cope with the sheer scale of the fight that's being placed before it.

    Sure, 1 Battalion can cause a lot of hate and discontent. But it won't cause a Corps to surrender because it landed at an unsuspected point and got into their rear. And Each Battalion the Marines can bring to bear is up against an entire Corps of enemy troops. The Marines maintain technical supremacy and C4I Supremacy. But the salient question is "Does a battalion with a year's worth of supplies have the capability to defeat a Corps or better?". And unless the answer is an unqualifed yes, then the Marines will not succeed.

    Again, we're talking about Attacking on the strategic scale. You can't make multiple amphibs with battalions on the perimeter and defeat Nazi Europe. You have to actually penetrate Into Germany herself and force a political captitulation. So no matter how much 'consternation' battalion-level landings accomplish 200km inland, they're still several hundred km away from their primary objective. At some point the USMC will have to push forward with a deep attack, supplied by a beachhead or port, and at that point the Germans will wear them down.

    In short, the Germans don't have to defend the beaches. In fact, it's better if they Don't defend the beaches at all. But if they do defend beaches, defend the ones from Brittany to the Netherlands, because that's the most likely landing points. Why? That's where the Marines can maintain a reasonable sortie rate of their land-based fighters (since they have no supercarriers to base them on). Any farther out and the range will start to degrade numbers and/or payloads. Operations near the Spanish border, or especially along the southern coast, will have far fewer air assets to support them, and those air assets can be potentially overwhelmed by the Luftwaffe. This cannot be discounted. Without the USN's might covering it, the Amphibious groups will have to provide all of their own air and sea support. They'll have to take out E-boots, U-boats, and naval bombers/fighter-bombers that will be trying to sink them. Without being very close to friendly airbases, the gators will need to put most, maybe all, their air assets on close protecting the ships themselves. Just like the M1A1 is a beast with its 120mm main gun....for the first 42 rounds, the fleet and aircraft will inflict losses....until the ready rounds run out. Once that happens there is a window of vulnerability by which torpedo bombers can sink the transports. Therefore the most likely landing points are not far removed from Normandy itself.
    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Nichols View Post
      I'm maintaining that today's Corps would never pick Normandy as the entrance point to Fortress Europe.
      Hell, they could have landed at Bermerhaven.
      Taken in the context of a multi-Division raid, they could have done a lot of damage and perhaps even forced a negotiated settlement.

      Something similar to what the Mongols did to Poland. Frame it like that, instead of the now unworkable demand for total surrender, and you might be able to enforce a regime change.

      But you'd have to do some fancy foot-work to ensure that the shock and awe of your campaign really does shake the German's faith in their own system and their technology.
      Like the Europeans nibbling away at Imperial China, you can't beat them all, but you can cause a collapse of the national willpower.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
        Just so you and I are on the same page, you're talking to an 0481 Redpatcher.
        IOT maintain the same page :

        http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...67&postcount=1


        Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
        I'm fully aware of the capabilities and limitations of a MEU and MEB in the amphibious arena. My argument has little to do with the ability of the USMC to break into Fortress Europe from any point they wish, from the Dardanelles clean around to Denmark. My argument has everything to do with the USMC simply not being able to cope with the sheer scale of the fight that's being placed before it.
        My argument is that the Marines would not go toe to toe with the Germans, they couldn't win an attrition battle. The critical vulnerabilty that the Germans would have fighting a 21st Century Marine Corps is the German's Centralized Command & Control.

        Field Marshal Rundstedt ordered 2 Panzer Divisions to Normandy a couple hours before the landing. The Divisions didn't move because Hitler didn't give the check roger for them to move. Lucky for the Allies, Hitler slept in that day until noon. This gave the LSB bubbas the time to establish a beach head for operations into France.

        Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
        But the salient question is "Does a battalion with a year's worth of supplies have the capability to defeat a Corps or better?". And unless the answer is an unqualifed yes, then the Marines will not succeed.
        By 1944 the German Army had become a Centralized Command & Control Army. Hitler made tactical decisions on the division and sometimes lower levels. This was not the German Army of 1940 that managed to tie down about 37 French Division on the Maginot Line while the main force carried out the Blitzkrieg.

        Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
        Again, we're talking about Attacking on the strategic scale. You can't make multiple amphibs with battalions on the perimeter and defeat Nazi Europe.
        I'm talking about attacking strategic targets......cutting off the head of the snake as the first act, not picking it up by it's tail.

        Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
        You have to actually penetrate Into Germany herself and force a political captitulation.
        If the 90-140 Divisions are along the coast watching gator squares.....who's defending the head of the snake?

        Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
        So no matter how much 'consternation' battalion-level landings accomplish 200km inland, they're still several hundred km away from their primary objective. At some point the USMC will have to push forward with a deep attack, supplied by a beachhead or port, and at that point the Germans will wear them down.
        You're thinking WW II, not 21st Century stuff.....multiple FARPs would be enough to sustain a rapid vertical assault while the rest of the Corps is playing riendeer games with the Gator Squares and multiple feints.
        "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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        • #34
          Oh, I was only noting my credentials so we were both aware that we're fellow professionals, that have been sugar-cookied by LCACs, run HSTs (those Ospreys and their wind....but at least they don't clothesline you with a wheel like the 53), and worked A/DACGs in country, rather than a Marine discussing it with a civilian that learned everything on Wikipedia. Nothing wrong with civilians, but it helps to have actually been in the saddle with some of the gear and techniques being discussed.

          Well, I guess we have reached an impasse on the question of whether or not it would succeed in reaching the desired solution. Only one thing left to do: Develop the actual Op and see what the Marines can actually do!

          Without revealing sensitive data, and assuming that the "4th" is every bit the equal of the others (to the chagrin of the active duty which are even now saying ' reservists'), we have:

          4 MEFs (Marine Expeditionary Force, Division-Battlegroup equivalent)
          4 MLGs (Marine Logistics Groups, Support Brigade Equivalent)
          4 MAWs (Marine Air Wings)

          I'm looking for Orbats on the forces. Not total troop numbers so much as Tank, LAV (all variants, separated), Artillery (all types, separated), aircraft (by type), and the number of HMMWV, 7-ton, engineering, and LVS assets available.

          Going with the allowance to have All amphibious ships in the USN inventory that would normally carry Marines being attached for this exercise, that gives us currently:

          1 Tarawa-class LHA (4 LCU)
          8 Wasp-Class LHD (12 LCM or 3 LCAC apiece...mostly LCAC)
          5 San Antonio LPD (1 LCU or 2 LCAC And 14 AAV apiece)
          8 Whidbey Island LSD (4 LCAC)
          4 Harpers Ferry LSD (2 LCAC)
          2 Austin LPD (1 LCAC or 24 AAV apiece)
          4 Newport LST
          4 Charleston ACS (predecessor to LPD, carries 18 LCM)

          And I'm going to say that 8 MPF (Maritime Prepositioned Force) black-bottoms will be included as these suckers are vital to any of our operations.

          For argument's sake that none of these ships would be unescorted, we will have 16 Arleigh-Burke Flight IIs as a part of the force to escort the ships.

          Plenty of landing capability.....craploads of it even. We just need the airpower and a mission.
          Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
            Oh, I was only noting my credentials
            I only threw mine out there because you made me feel like a lesser Marine for losing gear throughout my time in....

            Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
            so we were both aware that we're fellow professionals, that have been sugar-cookied........................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................craploads of it even. We just need the airpower and a mission.
            Okay, this is going to take some time....

            My initial thoughts are to run amphibious feints off of various coasts, the focus of effort would be a massive vertical envelopment/raid on the C-2.

            Do we have the logistics to run numerous FARPs?
            "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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            • #36
              The manpower? Yes.

              The aircraft is where the issue comes in. This scenario disallows the use of civilian aircraft or Strategic Airlift Command assets.

              There are only 66 KC130s in the inventory, and that's going to make up your most efficient portion of the aviation element to supply a FARP.

              The deeper inland your FARP, the smaller and smaller the loads that the V22s and 53s will be able to carry. V22s won't be affected as badly, but 53s definitely will. And if you're using items that will have to be sling-loaded on a 53, that range will drop pretty drastically in my experience.
              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                The manpower? Yes.

                The aircraft is where the issue comes in. This scenario disallows the use of civilian aircraft or Strategic Airlift Command assets.

                There are only 66 KC130s in the inventory, and that's going to make up your most efficient portion of the aviation element to supply a FARP.

                The deeper inland your FARP, the smaller and smaller the loads that the V22s and 53s will be able to carry. V22s won't be affected as badly, but 53s definitely will. And if you're using items that will have to be sling-loaded on a 53, that range will drop pretty drastically in my experience.
                Keeping in line with the OP, how far can we run FARPs? If we can get the realistic distance we can start looking at possible C-2 targets.
                "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                Comment


                • #38
                  I guess my question is whether we will be taking an airfield, or doing it in rough conditions?

                  If you take an airfield intact, then you can use KC130s. Accounting for attrition to flak, you could run maybe 2 reinforced company size FARPs at 1200 miles from the nearest airbase. Technically you could run a single reinforced company farther out, but you'd be doing mid-air refueling to do so. The issue is taking the airfield, as none of the helos or ospreys have the range, so more KC130s would be on fuel duty than would be on transport duty. You'll also be relegated to only LAVs and HMMWVs, as the other vehicles are too large to fly in via C-130 in any practical manner, and only mortars for fire support. Your FARP would also have an extremely limited fuel depot for aircraft, if any at all, so Cobras would be minimal to none. In order to run anything larger your optempo would be increased substantially, and your crews and such worn down such that you would have to discontinue usage in a short period of time.

                  If you get within 100-150 miles of the coast, you get into the practical range of helicopters, and then you can run a larger one, say battalion size for a moderate amount of time.
                  Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                  • #39
                    Just for reference by mid 1944 the German army had
                    33 Panzer Divisions
                    16 Panzergrenadier Divisions
                    2 Calvary Divisions
                    198 Infantry Divisions
                    13 Mountain Divisions
                    12 Security Divisions
                    12 Air force field Divisions
                    4 Airborne Divisions

                    I believe this includes SS divisions

                    Though I have no idea of the numbers of their "army troops" they have (corps level units)...

                    The Luftwaffe had some 5000 aircraft at the same time frame.

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                    • #40
                      Hmmm Interesting, I know you said no USN fighting ships , but you might do better to include a few USN Aircraft carriers and their escort ships . That way U.S.M.C. and USN pilots could clear the way buy taking out Luftwaffer aircraft so the Marines on the ground can move faster . Just a thought

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                        If you get within 100-150 miles of the coast, you get into the practical range of helicopters, and then you can run a larger one, say battalion size for a moderate amount of time.
                        They just concluded Bold Alligator 2012 last month....a lot of data:

                        http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=...w=1205&bih=741

                        I'm going to start shiting through this...it's going to take some time...Holy Week has priority now.
                        "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Nebfer View Post
                          Just for reference by mid 1944 the German army had
                          33 Panzer Divisions
                          16 Panzergrenadier Divisions
                          2 Calvary Divisions
                          198 Infantry Divisions
                          13 Mountain Divisions
                          12 Security Divisions
                          12 Air force field Divisions
                          4 Airborne Divisions

                          I believe this includes SS divisions

                          Though I have no idea of the numbers of their "army troops" they have (corps level units)...

                          The Luftwaffe had some 5000 aircraft at the same time frame.
                          Nebfer,

                          Any idea as to what the nationalities are of those divisions?

                          If they are all only German, the Germans would then have addition divisions from various other countries.
                          "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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                          • #43
                            What? The corps dosen't even need to fight. A few F-18's can fly over the Berchesgaden and kill Hitler with JDAMs; in fact a few F-18's could do the job that hundreds of bombers couldn't do.
                            Radio Paris Ment...
                            Radio Paris Ment...
                            Radio Paris est Allemand...

                            - Radio London opening intro

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                              While it may be great to have such air superiority, the fact remains that the 250,000 USMC (This the total contingeant) have to defeat something like 9,000,000 ground troops.

                              This equates to something like 280+ field divisions, the 10's of thousands of artillery guns, the 10's of thousands of anti-aircraft guns, the 10's of thousands of anti-tank guns, the millions of rifles and small arms, the hundreds of rounds of ammunition, 10,000+ AFV including tanks, the millions of mines

                              Then on top of that the USMC would have to almost by themselves virtually destroy all of Germany's war industry, Military infrastructer, lines of communications, attack on a very broad front.

                              Also if we use the OP only transports can be used, so that rules out anyother support even using Britain, those transports would be vulnerable to Submarine attack.

                              I am not saying that USMC defeat is a given, but it would certainly be very difficult to achieve.

                              I propose a heliborne assault on the submarine bases after bombardment and aerial recon as well as air assetts escorting the transports. Outfitting some helos with ASW and MCM gear would also be part ofthe invasion.

                              The USMC would only have to isolate, suppress or bypass the bulk of German units as opposed to defeating them all. I would use Desert Storm in 1991 as a model.
                              "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                              George Mason
                              Co-author of the Second Amendment
                              during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

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                              • #45
                                Mostly bypass. There aren't enough assets or supplies to reliably isolate or suppress the vast multiplicity of enemy units for very long. In small cases, sure.

                                Nichols, you found out where you want to do the first raid? Those 4 Newport LSTs should be able to sail right up the larger rivers without a problem. They draft 17ft, with a beam of 70ft, and a capacity of 400 men and a platoon's worth of tanks or LAVs or so. Not a ship type I'm truly familiar with since they've been mothballed a while.
                                Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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