Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Germany 1944 vs modern USMC

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Using combat power numbers assigned by various researchers, Dupuy, Dunnigan, Nofi, etc. one can game the units on the terrain applicable with relative ease.

    Some of the scenarios are weighed in favor of one side or the other in ways that would not occur but it is alternate reality. It is just for fun.

    Should one have no interest in discussing gaming the scenario, then so be it. How about not popping in and crapping all over the existence of alternate reality scenarios if one is not interested in the genre.
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
      Using combat power numbers assigned by various researchers, Dupuy, Dunnigan, Nofi, etc. one can game the units on the terrain applicable with relative ease.

      Some of the scenarios are weighed in favor of one side or the other in ways that would not occur but it is alternate reality. It is just for fun.

      Should one have no interest in discussing gaming the scenario, then so be it. How about not popping in and crapping all over the existence of alternate reality scenarios if one is not interested in the genre.
      You know one thing you have left out and that is you can research the hell out of anything with almost 70 years of historical records to come up with supporting evidence, but here is the kicker, you forget the HUMAN FACTOR.

      Yes use statistics, but don't rely on them as gospel.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Andy H View Post
        10 pages on if 1/4million US Marines can defeat 9million men of the Wehrmacht-Really-10pages!

        Has anyone played the USMC Alien Space Bat card yet
        No but i have used the "Harry Potter, Cloak of invisiblity" card

        How can you explain a ground force of no more than 4 USMC 2012 Divisions and support units landing at Normandy and then fighting an offensive all the way to Berlin without the Wehrmacht ever seeing their enemy face to face.

        And not only that but a invasion fleet sitting off the coast of Normandy without being seen by the defenders of the Beaches of Normany, what evey ship are all U.S.S Eldridge knock offs and can be rendered invisible to the enemy.

        Comment


        • I have a feeling that none of you guys talked about morale. I'm pretty sure that during the first weeks of the war, the Wehrmacht will have their a$$es skinned and cropped by the Marines, both due to their higher degree of training (we have to admit that the average Marine is far better trained than the average "Landser") and due to the extremely high level of technology. IMHO, a single Abrams tank platoon can well take on and annihilate a German heavy tank battalion, even the theoritical ones that were suppose to be fully equipped with Tiger IIs. The Abrams' tough armor can withstand pretty much any AT weapon of WW2 simply because it already withstood much harder stuff, say like a Russian 125mm. So the puny 88mm won't do anything. Their own 120mm loaded with sabot and HEAT will pretty much wreck anything the Germans have. They also possess extremely advanced nightvision an FLIR optics, which means that the Germans will have nowhere to hide. And Abrams isn't the only weapon in the US arsenal capable of dealing with tanks; TOW, Javelin and AT-4 will all do an equally fine job.

          USMC will also have full air supremacy, which will pretty much permit it to rain down death and destruction upon the already demoralized Germans.

          All-in-all the Germans will be totally demoralized and might surrender by the hundred, if not thousands, just like the Iraqis in Desert storm...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ForIAmSparticus View Post
            The Marines armor and air superiority would win the day. Not to mention superior infantry weapons. The main obstacle would be fuel, ammunition, and other supplies
            Point proven for a German win. Logistics win wars

            Regards
            "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

            "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ubermensche View Post
              I have a feeling that none of you guys talked about morale. I'm pretty sure that during the first weeks of the war, the Wehrmacht will have their a$$es skinned and cropped by the Marines, both due to their higher degree of training (we have to admit that the average Marine is far better trained than the average "Landser") and due to the extremely high level of technology. IMHO, a single Abrams tank platoon can well take on and annihilate a German heavy tank battalion, even the theoritical ones that were suppose to be fully equipped with Tiger IIs. The Abrams' tough armor can withstand pretty much any AT weapon of WW2 simply because it already withstood much harder stuff, say like a Russian 125mm. So the puny 88mm won't do anything. Their own 120mm loaded with sabot and HEAT will pretty much wreck anything the Germans have. They also possess extremely advanced nightvision an FLIR optics, which means that the Germans will have nowhere to hide. And Abrams isn't the only weapon in the US arsenal capable of dealing with tanks; TOW, Javelin and AT-4 will all do an equally fine job.

              USMC will also have full air supremacy, which will pretty much permit it to rain down death and destruction upon the already demoralized Germans.

              All-in-all the Germans will be totally demoralized and might surrender by the hundred, if not thousands, just like the Iraqis in Desert storm...
              Hi

              The German had to limit the deployment of their heavy tanks to the bridges that could accommodate their weight. This will be a bigger headache for the MI's. The Bogage country in Normandy itself will prove a bigger problem for the M1 than it ever did for the M4!

              Nobody in their right might will suggest that a WW2 era German tank will take out a M1 in a straight fight. The best they can hope to do is to disable it via its tracks. However the follow-up APC's etc are vunerable to a whole range of WW2 era weaponry available to the Germans.

              The troop density once the Marines breakout of their B/H will decrease as the front expands. No matter what the technology, the old motto about numbers of boots on the ground still applies. Yes modern technology will offset some of the disparity, but nowhere near enough for the USMC to achieve anywhere near this WI.

              Regards
              "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

              "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                Hi

                The German had to limit the deployment of their heavy tanks to the bridges that could accommodate their weight. This will be a bigger headache for the MI's. The Bogage country in Normandy itself will prove a bigger problem for the M1 than it ever did for the M4!

                Nobody in their right might will suggest that a WW2 era German tank will take out a M1 in a straight fight. The best they can hope to do is to disable it via its tracks. However the follow-up APC's etc are vunerable to a whole range of WW2 era weaponry available to the Germans.

                The troop density once the Marines breakout of their B/H will decrease as the front expands. No matter what the technology, the old motto about numbers of boots on the ground still applies. Yes modern technology will offset some of the disparity, but nowhere near enough for the USMC to achieve anywhere near this WI.

                Regards
                Exactly, those Abrams will be restricted by the many bridges that can't support their weight, although give credit to the USMC they will have mobile bridging equipment so that should not be much of an issue in the context of small rivers and streams.

                As for a Breakout situation, with what the USMC have at their disposal a breakout should not be a problem, but unlike the other on this thread it seems i am the only one that dares to suggest that eventually attritian (casualties) of ground troops will pose a serious threat to the USMC 2012, remember for every one killed, wounded, missing, sick means one less on the battlefield.

                Also i am the only it seems that has raised the effect of having hundreds of troops per day being medi vacced back to surgical wards on those support ships that will overload their capacity to offer medical assistance, that in many cases many will die before that can get treatment.

                Plainly no amount of modern equipment can 4 USMC division overcome 300+ field divisions.

                Also Untermensch mentions all those German troops giving up, that will make the situation even worse for the USMC as they now will be using their very limited supplies such as food to feed all those hundreds to thousands of German Prisoners. They (the USMC) will need to feed those PoW's, clothe, house, get medical treatment, transporting said prisoner etc...

                Another point on German troops surrendering, the USMC will have to divert ground troops to security duties and processing of German Prisioner, thus robbing Peter to pay Paul, this will bite heavily, this alone will overburden the logistics of the USMC.

                The USMC will eventually be bogged down in a war it can not hope to win, not with 240,000, if you included the USN and the US Army then the Wehrmacht would not stand a chance, but as an isolated force with restrictions imposed, yeah good luck because they are going to need it.

                Comment


                • the nearly 4 years of war would have never occured because the current USMC of the year 2012,wound beat germany from the 1930s and 1940s,in less than 6 months.
                  I am a soldier, I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight.
                  General George Patton Jr

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by bigjake1963 View Post
                    the nearly 4 years of war would have never occured because the current USMC of the year 2012,wound beat germany from the 1930s and 1940s,in less than 6 months.
                    Is that what happens when your playing with your toy soldiers

                    Regards
                    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                    "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                      Hi

                      The German had to limit the deployment of their heavy tanks to the bridges that could accommodate their weight. This will be a bigger headache for the MI's. The Bogage country in Normandy itself will prove a bigger problem for the M1 than it ever did for the M4!

                      Nobody in their right might will suggest that a WW2 era German tank will take out a M1 in a straight fight. The best they can hope to do is to disable it via its tracks. However the follow-up APC's etc are vunerable to a whole range of WW2 era weaponry available to the Germans.

                      The troop density once the Marines breakout of their B/H will decrease as the front expands. No matter what the technology, the old motto about numbers of boots on the ground still applies. Yes modern technology will offset some of the disparity, but nowhere near enough for the USMC to achieve anywhere near this WI.

                      Regards
                      You are suggesting duels and lines of units facing one another in a build up race until a "breakout" which is completely contrary to modern doctrine.

                      Marine air and ground forces recon will know where the German defensive strongpoints are and take them out well in advance of the infantry.

                      Besides the fact that the M1 is invulnerable to a penetration kill, it is faster, quiter on the approach, has a longer range gun, can operate and fire in all weather and at night with thermal and night vision equipment.

                      As to the idea that the premeir amphibious force in the world
                      will be unable to cross rivers becuase of bridging issues...

                      Artillery submunitions rendered entire artillery or anti aircraft batteries and supply battalions hors de combat in Iraq before the actual ground offensive began.

                      Individual Marine Cobras can take out a company of Panzers at a time with missiles and the 30 mm cannon. Fixed wing aircraft will do the same level killing which isolates or freezes entire battalions.

                      Shock and awe is a reality when lesser units face modern combat effects, even for the master race.
                      "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                      George Mason
                      Co-author of the Second Amendment
                      during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                        You are suggesting duels and lines of units facing one another in a build up race until a "breakout" which is completely contrary to modern doctrine.

                        Marine air and ground forces recon will know where the German defensive strongpoints are and take them out well in advance of the infantry.

                        Besides the fact that the M1 is invulnerable to a penetration kill, it is faster, quiter on the approach, has a longer range gun, can operate and fire in all weather and at night with thermal and night vision equipment.

                        As to the idea that the premeir amphibious force in the world
                        will be unable to cross rivers becuase of bridging issues...

                        Artillery submunitions rendered entire artillery or anti aircraft batteries and supply battalions hors de combat in Iraq before the actual ground offensive began.

                        Individual Marine Cobras can take out a company of Panzers at a time with missiles and the 30 mm cannon. Fixed wing aircraft will do the same level killing which isolates or freezes entire battalions.

                        Shock and awe is a reality when lesser units face modern combat effects, even for the master race.
                        Then explain why after 10 years the USMC hasn't defeated the Taliban?

                        If after 10 Years the USMC can't defeat the Taliban (a pack of rag head muzzie knuckle draggers) and never will, explain why you think that the USMC can defeat The Greater German Reich to Unconditional Surrender in 2 to 3 weeks WITHOUT EITHER EVER SIGHTING GERMAN GROUND FORCES AND SUFFERING ANY SIGNIFCANT CASUALTIES?
                        Last edited by Roddoss72; 27 Jun 12, 01:02.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                          Then explain why after 10 years the USMC hasn't defeated the Taliban?

                          If after 10 Years the USMC can't defeat the Taliban (a pack of rag head muzzie knuckle draggers) and never will
                          You need to know the difference between a conventional army versus a guerrilla army with a safe haven.

                          explain why you think that the USMC can defeat The Greater German Reich to Unconditional Surrender in 2 to 3 weeks WITHOUT EITHER EVER SIGHTING GERMAN GROUND FORCES AND SUFFERING ANY SIGNIFCANT CASUALTIES
                          Shock and Awe

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                            You are suggesting duels and lines of units facing one another in a build up race until a "breakout" which is completely contrary to modern doctrine.

                            Marine air and ground forces recon will know where the German defensive strongpoints are and take them out well in advance of the infantry.

                            Besides the fact that the M1 is invulnerable to a penetration kill, it is faster, quiter on the approach, has a longer range gun, can operate and fire in all weather and at night with thermal and night vision equipment.

                            As to the idea that the premeir amphibious force in the world
                            will be unable to cross rivers becuase of bridging issues...

                            Artillery submunitions rendered entire artillery or anti aircraft batteries and supply battalions hors de combat in Iraq before the actual ground offensive began.

                            Individual Marine Cobras can take out a company of Panzers at a time with missiles and the 30 mm cannon. Fixed wing aircraft will do the same level killing which isolates or freezes entire battalions.

                            Shock and awe is a reality when lesser units face modern combat effects, even for the master race.
                            Hi

                            Whilst modern technology is an undoubted force multiplier, you need manpower to defeat & hold the ground won. Do you honestly believe that the 240,000 USMC could do that against 9million strong Germany-honestly.

                            When I left the Army back in the 90's, you could still disable a tank easily and then it just becomes a expensive 60ton pillbox. Tanks still had to go by set routes because of the weight and size limits on certain roads & bridges in NW Europe, the passing of time will not change that fact.

                            Nobody would doubt that the attrition rate in the Wehrmacht would be high, higher than the USMC, but in the end the sheer numbers would win the day. In fact any modern army of 240k against the 9million Wehrmacht of 1944 would lose, that's why this WI is so unworkable/unfeasible

                            Regards
                            "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                            "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                              Hi

                              Whilst modern technology is an undoubted force multiplier, you need manpower to defeat & hold the ground won. Do you honestly believe that the 240,000 USMC could do that against 9million strong Germany-honestly.

                              When I left the Army back in the 90's, you could still disable a tank easily and then it just becomes a expensive 60ton pillbox. Tanks still had to go by set routes because of the weight and size limits on certain roads & bridges in NW Europe, the passing of time will not change that fact.

                              Nobody would doubt that the attrition rate in the Wehrmacht would be high, higher than the USMC, but in the end the sheer numbers would win the day. In fact any modern army of 240k against the 9million Wehrmacht of 1944 would lose, that's why this WI is so unworkable/unfeasible

                              Regards
                              1. For reasons posted earlier, I and others reject the 9 million number as nonsense. More to the point, one thing you never see opposition doing today is concetrating large numbers of troops against a modern force. Truly, the more the merrier as it makes a target rich environment. So yes, I would prefer a million man force in a small area as the would be slaughtered.

                              2. The decapitation of the German leadership is quite feasable, leading to surrender of most of those forces. The supposed "kill every German" requirement for victory is non existent just as it was in 1944. Massive German surrenders on the order of the Russia campaigns is very likely.

                              3. That you in the 90s possessed the weapons and capability to immobilize a 1990s tank has no connection to a 1944 army. Battlespaces are far greater as a matter of survival of the opposition forces. Tempo due to extended range of recon and night battle capabilities is something the Germans won't be used to.

                              4. The two dimensional perception that you are proposing is precisely the kind of vulnerability I expect the German Army and Army Group commanders to present. Thus covering bridges against ground forces and even paratroops will not prevent the heliborne capture of those bridges. Imagine Market Garden with modern weapons capabilities to bypass and isolate the outmoded forces.
                              "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                              George Mason
                              Co-author of the Second Amendment
                              during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                                Is that what happens when your playing with your toy soldiers

                                Regards
                                closer to more like what you do when you play with your 3x triple size authentic dildo circa the ww2 era!
                                I am a soldier, I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight.
                                General George Patton Jr

                                Comment

                                Latest Topics

                                Collapse

                                Working...
                                X