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  • Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
    That is right up there with torpedo boats and minesweepers assuring the success of Operation Seawolf.
    As to your scenario where by the USMC 2012 can defeat Germany and its forces without suffering one single casualty.

    Oh and throw in the USMC 2012 use of all the Cloaks of Invisibilities.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
      As to your scenario where by the USMC 2012 can defeat Germany and its forces without suffering one single casualty.

      Oh and throw in the USMC 2012 use of all the Cloaks of Invisibilities.
      Really?

      Cyberknight's post #96: "Not being easy and heavy losses, still equal a win for the Marins, although I doubt that losses will be that high."

      Cyberknght's post #103: "Yes there will be setbacks, casualties and it won't be perfect. The modern Marines still win."
      "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
      George Mason
      Co-author of the Second Amendment
      during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
        Really?

        Cyberknight's post #96: "Not being easy and heavy losses, still equal a win for the Marins, although I doubt that losses will be that high."

        Cyberknght's post #103: "Yes there will be setbacks, casualties and it won't be perfect. The modern Marines still win."
        Now we are getting somewhere with casulties.

        How many casulties would you expect the USMC 2012 will suffer with a continious offensive action against the Wehrmacht 1944 from Normandy to Berlin in the several weeks of offensive action to get the German Government to unconditionally surrender.

        Rebember defeat of the Wehrmach has to absolute.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Nebfer View Post
          This might be interesting.
          The Entirety of the current (2012) USMC finds it self prepping for a invasion of German occupied Europe. As of May 1944. Facing them however is the full strength of the German military, to enable their full attention to the marines all other players have been removed (I.e. Russia is no longer a issue / surrendered a few months back or what naught).

          Basically this is a full up USMC (all of it as of 2012) vs the entirety of the German Military as of mid 1944.

          Out side of transports no USN ships are present.

          Situation 1 would entail the USMC in England with them prepping for a invasion, situation 2 involves them already on the mainland. With the Germans redeploying their forces as fast as they can (assume they have been doing this for about 2 months already)
          The marines have sufficient supply's with them for the better part of a year.

          So can the some 240,000 Marines defeat the ~9 million strong German military?

          A few questions, what can the Germans do to counter the Abrams? I have heard of a few sources indicating that the rear is weak to 14.5mm rounds? Also I seen a few sources indicate that some of the rarer portions of the side armor might be vulnerable to WW2 era rounds (armor under 150mm LOS).

          Also due to the supposed weak rear armor would it be possible for a panzerschreck to penetrate it?
          Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
          Rebember defeat of the Wehrmach has to absolute.
          Could you point that out in the opening thread?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by johns624 View Post
            Could you point that out in the opening thread?
            "Basically this is a full up USMC (all of it as 2012), vs the entirety of the German Military as of mid 1944"

            Is that enough, it means that these two forces will be pitted against each other and one side has to win, period. This means that one side has to utterly defeat the other's capacity to fight.

            The scenario indicates either the Werhmacht 1944 has to destroy the USMC 2012, or that the USMC 2012 has to destroy the Wehrmacht 1944, to a point of nothing short of unconditional surrender for the Wehrmacht 1944 or defeat and evacuation of the European Continent of the USMC 2012.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
              "Basically this is a full up USMC (all of it as 2012), vs the entirety of the German Military as of mid 1944"

              Is that enough, it means that these two forces will be pitted against each other and one side has to win, period. This means that one side has to utterly defeat the other's capacity to fight.

              The scenario indicates either the Werhmacht 1944 has to destroy the USMC 2012, or that the USMC 2012 has to destroy the Wehrmacht 1944, to a point of nothing short of unconditional surrender for the Wehrmacht 1944 or defeat and evacuation of the European Continent of the USMC 2012.
              No it doesn't. Units which surrender without being totally destroyed, as happened with German units in WW2 and happens in most wars were not totally destroyed.

              Quit trying to move the goal posts.
              "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
              George Mason
              Co-author of the Second Amendment
              during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                No it doesn't. Units which surrender without being totally destroyed, as happened with German units in WW2 and happens in most wars were not totally destroyed.

                Quit trying to move the goal posts.
                You don't get it do you?

                Two sides, one conducting an offensive action (USMC 2012) while one is conducting a defensive action (Wehrmacht 1944).

                One side has to defeat the other to a point that one side can no longer has the capacity to wage war.

                It is that simple!

                That is what you don't get!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                  You don't get it do you?

                  Two sides, one conducting an offensive action (USMC 2012) while one is conducting a defensive action (Wehrmacht 1944).

                  One side has to defeat the other to a point that one side can no longer has the capacity to wage war.

                  It is that simple!

                  That is what you don't get!
                  The perception of capacity to wage war is not based on the number of units "completely destroyed".

                  Just as in chess when you kill the King it doesn't matter what is left on the board, if the German surviving leadership has lost enough of their C3, manufacturing, transport, power, fuel and military wherewithal, they will surrender even if there are surviving units on the Spanish, Russian and Italian border.
                  "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                  George Mason
                  Co-author of the Second Amendment
                  during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                    You don't get it do you?

                    Two sides, one conducting an offensive action (USMC 2012) while one is conducting a defensive action (Wehrmacht 1944).

                    One side has to defeat the other to a point that one side can no longer has the capacity to wage war.

                    It is that simple!

                    That is what you don't get!
                    What you don't understand is that "capacity to wage war" does not necessarily mean physical destruction of enemy forces. With a technological superior army against a numerically superior foe, it is stupid to try to destroy entire military formations. The goal here is destroy the enemy's will to fight by shaping the battlefield and causing strategic paralysis. In other words, breaking the Wehrmacht from a proper army to 6 million men to a mob of non-cooperative groups of men with tanks and weapons that can be bypassed or destroyed piece meal.

                    The line between what is an army and a mob of armed is very thin. It is called the chain of command. The chain of command, especially for large formations of divisions and above, relies on command, control, and communications (C3 in military parlance). If you can destroy the communications part of the C3, then you destroy the command and control. Once the C3 is destroyed, the army is no longer an army.

                    The modern USMC relies on C4ISR, which stands for command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, survellance, and reconnaisance. The other terms have been added to make modern military formations a much for lethal fighting force than they ever were.

                    The best example I can come up to help you understand this capability is the old board game "Battleship". Imagine you are playing this game with an advantage that you can see where your opponent puts their ships. That is what modern C4ISR brings to the table.

                    Comment


                    • The Marines armor and air superiority would win the day. Not to mention superior infantry weapons. The main obstacle would be fuel, ammunition, and other supplies
                      “Come and take it!"

                      Comment


                      • Nothing is possible without the help of usefull idiots.

                        Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                        Yes it is...Pizzaro's invasion of the Incas basically saw a band of 100 men defeat the Incan army of 80,000. A decapitation strike on the Incan military leadership (Atahualpa and his generals) and the rest of their army basically lost their will to fight.
                        Might have been slighty difficult if not for the 100,000 tribal allies fighting with them in the conquest.
                        If war is Hell, why was the Eastern Front so damned cold??!!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by american1975 View Post
                          Might have been slighty difficult if not for the 100,000 tribal allies fighting with them in the conquest.
                          Yes, and that the Inca's had gone through a very serious outbreak of introduced smallpox which devestated the population and at about that time as well the Inca Empire was also in the throes of a Civil War and to top it all off the many Inca Priests had prophised the destruction of their own empire from a mysterious outsider.

                          Essentially what could go wrong, did.

                          Comment


                          • The problem with this is how is the USMC going to get over to Europe? That's kinda the Navy's job to give the Marines a ride - isn't it? According to the scenerio the USN isn't around so lets assume Chesty Puller comes back to live and uses his well known ability to part ocean and the Marines cross into Europe and the entire United States Marine Corps crosses into Normandy France.

                            As of today there are roughly 203,000 Marines on active duty plus another 40,000 in reservee for a total of 243,000. Think of the USMC as a smaller more compact version of the United States Military as a whole. It has enough equipment and men to outfit many major US allies such as the UK and Israel.

                            So we encounter a very interesting war here. The USMC has very advanced tech compared to Wehrmacht. Despite this the USMC only has four Tank Battalion's and the same number of Air Wing's. The Marines would quickly gain air superiority over the Wehrmacht they would shoot down countless German aircraft. But the problem is that aircraft and pilots although advanced compared to the Luftwaffe are rather small in number. you would have pilots flying mission after mission. This will take a serious psychological and phyiscal toll on not only the pilots but the crews who outfit these aircraft. It would be same with tankers. The M1A1 Abrams (I know there is a M1A2 but the Corps sticks with the older Army kit) would reduce Panzer IV's and even the legendary Panther and Tiger I models to scrap metal all the while wearing themselves out.

                            The Marines and the German infantry would go at it as well. The M16A4 would obviously be more than match for the bolt-action rifles fielded by the Germans not mention that even if the K43 and StG-44 could be issued to every German infantrymen (which they couldn't) they would be still be at serious disadvantage in firepower not mention the Germans would lack LMGs. The MG-34's and MG-42's are GPMGs that are not issued on a fireteam level like the M249 SAW. And another important factor is body armor something the Germans lack granted I am pretty sure the 7.92 could punch through.

                            In short the USMC would kick ass on an epic level until they ran out of ammo, fuel and parts. After which the tired and exhausted Marines would be taken prisoner or die.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Axis of Evil View Post
                              The problem with this is how is the USMC going to get over to Europe? That's kinda the Navy's job to give the Marines a ride - isn't it? According to the scenerio the USN isn't around so lets assume Chesty Puller comes back to live and uses his well known ability to part ocean and the Marines cross into Europe and the entire United States Marine Corps crosses into Normandy France.

                              As of today there are roughly 203,000 Marines on active duty plus another 40,000 in reservee for a total of 243,000. Think of the USMC as a smaller more compact version of the United States Military as a whole. It has enough equipment and men to outfit many major US allies such as the UK and Israel.

                              So we encounter a very interesting war here. The USMC has very advanced tech compared to Wehrmacht. Despite this the USMC only has four Tank Battalion's and the same number of Air Wing's. The Marines would quickly gain air superiority over the Wehrmacht they would shoot down countless German aircraft. But the problem is that aircraft and pilots although advanced compared to the Luftwaffe are rather small in number. you would have pilots flying mission after mission. This will take a serious psychological and phyiscal toll on not only the pilots but the crews who outfit these aircraft. It would be same with tankers. The M1A1 Abrams (I know there is a M1A2 but the Corps sticks with the older Army kit) would reduce Panzer IV's and even the legendary Panther and Tiger I models to scrap metal all the while wearing themselves out.

                              The Marines and the German infantry would go at it as well. The M16A4 would obviously be more than match for the bolt-action rifles fielded by the Germans not mention that even if the K43 and StG-44 could be issued to every German infantrymen (which they couldn't) they would be still be at serious disadvantage in firepower not mention the Germans would lack LMGs. The MG-34's and MG-42's are GPMGs that are not issued on a fireteam level like the M249 SAW. And another important factor is body armor something the Germans lack granted I am pretty sure the 7.92 could punch through.

                              In short the USMC would kick ass on an epic level until they ran out of ammo, fuel and parts. After which the tired and exhausted Marines would be taken prisoner or die.
                              In the OP the USMC get naval support from the USN, but here is the restrictions, they only get enough USN vessels to carry them to Europe (Normandy) to effect a landing, so no magical parting of the oceans.

                              Also the Marine Air Wing is based in Britain, just like what the 8th USAAF did, but now the 8th USAAF as well as the 9th, 12th and 15th USAAF's are no longer in the picture and so has RAF Fighter and Bomber Commands.

                              Also all other European Theatres of war ends, so no Italian and Russian Fronts this give the 1944 Wehrmacht several months to rebuild and transfer all available assets from those theatres into France.

                              Another point is that the OP has given the USMC 2012 12 months only in supplies to overcome the Wehrmacht 1944, but here is the kicker the OP has put no restrictions on the Wehrmacht 1944 meaning that you could assume that all the Wehrmact is fully kitted out and up to TO & E.

                              So in effect the USMC 2012 would be facing some opposition, this would be effectively something like 300+ divisions (inc.. 35+ Panzer Divisions), 6.5 million ground troops in various roles. Then we have 8 complete Luftflottes, with something like 10,000+ aircraft and to finnish off at least 300 to 400 U-Boats and at least another 200 to 300 small torpedo carrying vessels.

                              Comment


                              • 10 pages on if 1/4million US Marines can defeat 9million men of the Wehrmacht-Really-10pages!

                                Has anyone played the USMC Alien Space Bat card yet
                                "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                                "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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