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  • Germany 1944 vs modern USMC

    This might be interesting.
    The Entirety of the current (2012) USMC finds it self prepping for a invasion of German occupied Europe. As of May 1944. Facing them however is the full strength of the German military, to enable their full attention to the marines all other players have been removed (I.e. Russia is no longer a issue / surrendered a few months back or what naught).

    Basically this is a full up USMC (all of it as of 2012) vs the entirety of the German Military as of mid 1944.

    Out side of transports no USN ships are present.

    Situation 1 would entail the USMC in England with them prepping for a invasion, situation 2 involves them already on the mainland. With the Germans redeploying their forces as fast as they can (assume they have been doing this for about 2 months already)
    The marines have sufficient supply's with them for the better part of a year.

    So can the some 240,000 Marines defeat the ~9 million strong German military?

    A few questions, what can the Germans do to counter the Abrams? I have heard of a few sources indicating that the rear is weak to 14.5mm rounds? Also I seen a few sources indicate that some of the rarer portions of the side armor might be vulnerable to WW2 era rounds (armor under 150mm LOS).

    Also due to the supposed weak rear armor would it be possible for a panzerschreck to penetrate it?

  • #2
    Nope. Despite the vast technological advantage of the Marines, they aren't the army, so their gear won't even be the cream of today's crop. The biggest asset of the Marines will be their air power, which Germany can do little to counter. Their only hope would be massed air attacks while the Harriers and F-18s are on the ground. In terms of ground forces though, Germany need only encircle them, and then they're screwed.
    A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

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    • #3
      The Marines are superior doctrinally, technologically, Morally and, at this stage, physically, so long as they force the Nazi's to face them on the field they'll win every tactical engagment, encirlement is a threat, but that's why the Marines have these, try running a 1944 supply column in an area where those are operating Not to mention the fact the Frenchies are going to "Overthrow" their opressors.
      Task Force Regenbogen- Support and Paras

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      • #4
        Outnumbered 30-1?
        Jeez guys, got about a billion rounds to spare?

        BTW- AA guns and missiles are something the Marines are kinda lacking in. Stingers and 50-cal is about it these days.
        Something of an Achilles Heel when the enemy can still throw 1,000 aircraft at you in a day, and all you have is half a dozen squadrons of F-18s.
        Oops...

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Dashy View Post
          The Marines are superior doctrinally, technologically, Morally and, at this stage, physically, so long as they force the Nazi's to face them on the field they'll win every tactical engagment, encirlement is a threat, but that's why the Marines have these, try running a 1944 supply column in an area where those are operating Not to mention the fact the Frenchies are going to "Overthrow" their opressors.
          True that, but theirs one issue with the cobras, as we found out in Iraqi freedom, attack choppers can be vulnerable to AK rifle fire. I would also think the Germans would have a heavier flak defense than the Iraqis had.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
            In terms of ground forces though, Germany need only encircle them, and then they're screwed.
            Actually, that simplifies the situation:

            "So they've got us surrounded, good! Now we can fire in any direction, those b*****ds won't get away this time!"

            Chesty Puller


            http://www.3rdmarines.net/Marine_Quotes.htm

            The Germans wouldn't be able to bring 9 million men together at one time; it wouldn't be 9 mill against 240k. It would be whatever they could bring to contact. Logistically today's Marines and Soldier would beat them. A couple verticle envelopments some JDAMS and the Germans from 1944 couldn't bring the fight to a 4 Division size modern military force.
            "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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            • #7
              You've got not only the Marines fighting right at 2/3rds of the Wermacht, you've got them doing it without Navy assets to support? And the Marines are the Attackers?

              Short version is that the Marines are screwed due to a lack of....well, a lack of numbers in everything.

              Long version:

              Helicopters, both Attack and transport, will give the Marines an early mobility advantage, especially at night. However, helos are vulnerable to every sort of ground fire, and to piston-engine fighters, so they will be whittled down in time, no matter how many tanks they take out or airmobile assaults they complete. The Germans showed they were willing to pay the price against air forces they couldn't hope to defeat, they'll definitely pull out all stops fighting against helicopters that bring death to their tank formations. That's not to say that the first few times the choppers hit German armor at night they're not going to positively shred tanks wholesale, because they are, but in time the Germans will deploy enough light flak to take them out.

              Tanks. The Marines only have 4 tank battalions. The Abrams is good, and again, at night they're going to be stellar, but 4 battalions of uber-tanks isn't going to win a war, especially not an attacking one.

              Light Armor. The LAVs, with TOW missiles, 25mm cannons, and shake'n'bake (40mm/.50cal) are superior to their german counterparts, but here the Germans aren't that far behind, in that their weapons can penetrate the armor of the LAV, and that their chief advantage will be speed, electronics, and reliability. Again, at night they'll be a terror, even to tank battalions, but the LAVs aren't going to carry an assault against a veteran infantry division on their own either.

              Aircraft. The KC-130 being able to support refueling, the Marines will have quite a time tearing up the skies in AV8Bs and F-18s. There's really nothing that the Germans can do to stop either aircraft from scouting wherever it wants, or sweeping bomber formations off the map, along with ground strikes. In this Area the Marines will have persistent air supremacy both day and night. The biggest issue will be that they'll have to use radar-only missiles as Sidewinders will have some trouble against piston-engine planes. That taken into account, the Marines will rack up impressive kill-counts, but the Germans will keep to a strategy of randomly using airfields and roads for staging points and throwing up mass attacks on multiple axes to temporarily overcome an overall inferiority. The Marine's best strategy will be to destroy command and airfield infrastructure and force the Germans to always operate at maximum range. Planes will be lost in time, and cannot be replaced, but in this area I'm most confident that a long-term supremacy can be held....moreso than in any other area.

              Infantry. The Marines are only deploying 4 infantry divisions, really only 8 regiments in strength. Although individually each regiment will be effectively like a german division in a defensive fight, we're talking about an attack, which nullifies many of the defensive advantages that modern infantry have against their forebears. It will take some time, the Marines have good supporting and mobility assets, but they will be ground down to nothing for not a whole lot of gain. This is just not a fight you can win with such paltry numbers. The Germans having a large number of tanks and Stugs will be able to destroy the mobility assets, and with them destroyed the infantry just becomes very tough infantry, rather than a high-mobility striking force. The Germans wrote the book on operational blitzing, they'll know how to defeat one that isn't constantly reinvigorated with new divisions and gear.

              In the end, without the supercarrier-loads of fighter-bombers and other aircraft, the cruise-missiles of the fleet, and many other assets, the Marines will not be able to liberate Europe from the Nazis. Now, with the full might of the Navy in support, the modern Marine corps might be able to redo the island-hopping campaign successfully, those battles being within what 4 divisions can easily handle in scale, and the assets we have being able to do the amphibs faster, and at night, two things the Japanese won't be able to cope with.
              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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              • #8
                I don't see the Corps carrying this off, on logistical issues alone.

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                • #9
                  I agree, though I think the Corps would be worn down by manpower attrition long before supplies ran low, considering the access to ships that are normally attachable to Marines. 4 Divisions and 4 tank battalions simply isn't enough to do what you're asking. They'll certainly give much better than they get, and the Germans will forever fear that more of these guys might come across the water, but they will be beaten simply by lack of numbers. For every infantry battalion, the Germans can throw a full division with armor support.
                  Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                  • #10
                    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
                      I don't see the Corps carrying this off, on logistical issues alone.
                      Facing them however is the full strength of the German military,
                      What log? It's sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic. The Marines have no naval support, no navy= no beans and bullets. No navy = no F18's or Cobra's. Remember this is restricted to transports for the Marines not assault ships.
                      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                      • #12
                        The biggest problem will be lack of fuel, lack of parts and lack of ammunition. Until at least one of these three runs out, the USMC will have a large degree of success. I'm also not sure what level of casualties the USMC would consider "acceptable" before withdrawing from combat.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                          What log? It's sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic. The Marines have no naval support, no navy= no beans and bullets. No navy = no F18's or Cobra's. Remember this is restricted to transports for the Marines not assault ships.
                          John, Today's transport ships consist of:

                          Amphibious warships are designed to support the Marine Corps tenets of Operational Maneuver From the Sea (OMFTS) and Ship to Objective Maneuver (STOM). They must be able to sail in harm’s way and provide a rapid buildup of combat power ashore in the face of opposition. Because of their inherent capabilities, these ships have been and will continue to be called upon to also support humanitarian and other contingency missions on short notice. The United States maintains the largest and most capable amphibious force in the world. The Wasp-class LHDs are currently the largest amphibious ships in the world. The lead ship, USS Wasp (LHD 1) was commissioned in July 1989 in Norfolk, Va. LHA Replacement or LHA(R) is the next step in the incremental development of the “Big Deck Amphib”. She is being designed to accommodate the Marine Corps’ future Air Combat Element (ACE) including F-35B Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) and MV-22 Osprey with additional aviation maintenance capability and increased fuel capacities, while also providing additional cargo stowage capacities and enabling a broader, more flexible Command and Control capability.

                          http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_di...0&tid=400&ct=4

                          Today's transport ships consist of LHA/LHD, LCC, LPD, LSD, LCAC, and LCM/LCU

                          http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ships/amphibs/amphib.asp

                          The initial post called [I]"The Entirety of the current (2012) USMC"[/I] also it stated:

                          The marines have sufficient supply's with them for the better part of a year.


                          This means everyone...cooks, bakers, & candlestick makers.

                          The logistics would be there as would the CH-53, CH-46, AH-1, UH-1, MV-22, F-18s, AV-8, F-5E, EA-6, KC-130, UC-35, & RQ-7.

                          The airframes that couldn't launch from the LHA/LHD would be landbased out of England.

                          Amphibious transport ships, better part of a years logistics, & entirety of the current Corps. The German Army of 1944 would be attrited. With the the Prowlers in there...the Germans would not have a C-2 other than runners.
                          "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                            You've got not only the Marines fighting right at 2/3rds of the Wermacht, you've got them doing it without Navy assets to support? And the Marines are the Attackers?

                            Short version is that the Marines are screwed due to a lack of....well, a lack of numbers in everything.

                            Aircraft. The KC-130 being able to support refueling, the Marines will have quite a time tearing up the skies in AV8Bs and F-18s. There's really nothing that the Germans can do to stop either aircraft from scouting wherever it wants, or sweeping bomber formations off the map, along with ground strikes. In this Area the Marines will have persistent air supremacy both day and night. The biggest issue will be that they'll have to use radar-only missiles as Sidewinders will have some trouble against piston-engine planes. That taken into account, the Marines will rack up impressive kill-counts, but the Germans will keep to a strategy of randomly using airfields and roads for staging points and throwing up mass attacks on multiple axes to temporarily overcome an overall inferiority. The Marine's best strategy will be to destroy command and airfield infrastructure and force the Germans to always operate at maximum range. Planes will be lost in time, and cannot be replaced, but in this area I'm most confident that a long-term supremacy can be held....moreso than in any other area.
                            Current models of the AIM-9 have little trouble against piston-engined fighters. Let's also not forget that the Cobra can carry Sidewinders, making it a risky proposition for German fighters to attack it.
                            "The Bangalore Torpedo was 50' long and packed with 85 pounds of TNT and you assembled it along the way. By hand. I'd love to meet the ******* who invented it."

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                            • #15
                              The modern battlespace is so much larger due to range and commo, that the Marines woulkd cripple the 1940s Germans in weeks.

                              Whisket Cobras can take down FW-190s and Me-109 if the fast mopvers are elsewhere. LAV 25s can penetrate any German armor. USMC artillery guided by RPVs would make actual meeting unusual.

                              Sufficient fuel, food, ammo and rest would be the determinants of how fast Berlin falls.

                              Just replace those scenes of Iraqis surrendering to US forces during Desert Storm with Wermacht.
                              "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                              George Mason
                              Co-author of the Second Amendment
                              during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

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