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  • #16
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    This is the point where an actual expert on that time and place would step in and educate us all a little bit.....
    Do we even have any active Turkish members? Don't think so. So who here is the most knowledgeable on this time period?
    A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

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    • #17
      I can give an in depth account of the Byzantine Empires final days.

      and thats the latest my Black-Agean sea knowledge goes. Call me Helpful Harry!

      If Greece was a unified Baltic state they could have hacked it, perhaps a renewed Serbian Empire? united under the banner of Orthodoxy and not being Russian?
      Task Force Regenbogen- Support and Paras

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Dashy View Post
        I can give an in depth account of the Byzantine Empires final days.

        and thats the latest my Black-Agean sea knowledge goes. Call me Helpful Harry!

        If Greece was a unified Baltic state they could have hacked it, perhaps a renewed Serbian Empire? united under the banner of Orthodoxy and not being Russian?
        Baltic? Do you not mean Balkan? As for united under orthodoxy, consider who fought the Second Balkan War: Greece, Serbia and Romania against Bulgaria - all orthodox and all not Russian. They were also all competing madly for the prime parts of the Turkish province of Macedonia during the First Balkan War.

        Without being an expert, and only relying on the wiki article, Turkey had a friend in Bolshevik Russia (oddly) and two non-enemies in France and Italy, who gave back large chunks of Anatolia. Greece only had Britain and no money.

        Ataturk wasn't the only semi-decent military commander on the Turkish side. It wasn't so much great generalship from the Turks as the Greeks overplaying their hand: they got greedy and tried to go too far inland without sufficient anything.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
          Ataturk wasn't the only semi-decent military commander on the Turkish side. It wasn't so much great generalship from the Turks as the Greeks overplaying their hand: they got greedy and tried to go too far inland without sufficient anything.
          That man was a hell of a lot more than semi-decent, by a long shot.

          Yes, by going as far as Ankara the Greeks over-played both hands, but where should they have stopped?

          Prior to that, the ethnic populations were mixed. After the Greek defeat, it went like the partition of India, Greeks in Greece and Turks in Turkey, period.
          Not a happy resolution, but one that has lasted.... except for Cyprus.

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          • #20
            Surely the value of Attaturk isn't so much his military skill as his political skill. It may have been possible to find another General, but one who caould also turn himself into the most important & transformative Turkish leader in centuries? I doubt such men come along even once a generation.

            The issue here is not that Turkey loses the European part of its nation, but that having done so it is not as well led thereafter. The nation is weaker & less unified. it is not modernized as effectively. Attaturk didn't start that process, but his political skills influenced its success.

            Without his leadership what sort of a nation is the Turkey that enters the next Balkan war - some time in the mid-late 20s. With whom is it aligned? What shape is its economy in? What sort of shape is its society going to be in to cope wiht another war? These are the big questions for me.
            Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

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            • #21
              Originally posted by BF69 View Post
              ..Without his leadership what sort of a nation is the Turkey that enters the next Balkan war - some time in the mid-late 20s. With whom is it aligned? What shape is its economy in? What sort of shape is its society going to be in to cope wiht another war? These are the big questions for me.
              My money is on Bulgaria. The Bulgarians (with a significant Muslim population as well) fought well in WWI and they would love to get Thrace back. Turkey and Bulgaria would have made short work of Greece with Turkey regaining the Dardenelles and the Bulgarians Thrace (and a port in the Mediterranean).
              The Purist

              Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                My money is on Bulgaria. The Bulgarians (with a significant Muslim population as well) fought well in WWI and they would love to get Thrace back. Turkey and Bulgaria would have made short work of Greece with Turkey regaining the Dardenelles and the Bulgarians Thrace (and a port in the Mediterranean).
                DO you think that the Turks & Bulgarians would be able to sort out their own territorial issues sufficiently to ally themselves to this end? It certainly makes sense assuming they can. Both want something Greece has. I'm still wondering if Britain might help Greece. Turkey is a recent enemy & Greece a recent ally. Might Britain be keen to limit Turkish expansion?

                If there is a Balkan war in the late 20s, say, do you see Italy pitching in to try to get some territory? There were issues wiith both Greece and Turkey, though relations with Greece seemed to have been friendly enough until the attempt to seize Corfu. Alternatively, if Italy tries this would Britain warn her off again?

                So many interesting possibilities. Love the Balkans....provided I don't actually have to live there.
                Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

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