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  • A softer Versailles treaty

    What about a softer Versailles treaty? If the treaty were not so hard to Germany it could have prevent a WWII?

    Conditions:

    1) Germany has to pay minimal reparations? (a little less that they really finally paid).
    2) Germany losses its colonies (it has the main part of the war payment).
    3) The German army is not reduced or its air force prohibited.
    4) Germany doesn't loose territories to Poland.
    5) Alsace and Lorena is returned to France.
    6) The Ruhr is not occupied by the allied.

    Questions:

    This conditions could be enough to make pay Germany but not made then fell humiliated?
    It could have prevented the economic crisis in Germany in the 20s?
    It could have prevented the rise of the Nazi Party?
    It could have prevented the WWII?

    or the Nazi Party or similar was inevitable and also the WWII?
    G'stain, Speaker of the High Senate of the Cat People

  • #2
    In 1939 the Nazi Party asked Germany's colonies back.

    Comment


    • #3
      A few points.

      1. France is never going to allow Germany to retain it's army and airforce

      2. the Reperations were to repair damage in France, which was extensive. If they were less, the French would probably launch another assault into Germany before they could recover to take their reperations by force.

      3. The Versailles Treaty was very lenient, thanks to Wilson the Germans got off lightly (Comapred to the Russians in 1917, and Planned Anglo-Frank treaties).

      the one thing that could have really prevented a WW2 was America backing it's creation, the Leauge of Nations. They set up something that needed their full support and promptly abandoned it, had Wilson not interfered with the Versailles Treaty, it's quite likely Germany would have been partitioned, French possilby annexing the Rhur, the Poolish and Chzeks more territory, while the Remaining Germanic states were split up again, with garuntees of independence from Britian and France.
      Task Force Regenbogen- Support and Paras

      Comment


      • #4
        The time for a 'softer' treaty might have been 1925-1928. Britain, US, Italy left France & Belgium alone in their 1923 attempt to enforce the treaty. Had the US and Britian joined in a coherent effort to redefine the German role in Europe's peace from 1924 or a little later it might have been possible to rewrite it all. The German leaders of those years would have had some clear advantages in working this. The key would have been a sustained & coordinated effort by Britain, the US and others to persuade France. Instead the rather disjointed efforts like the Locarno Treaty or the Dawes Plan instituted half measures

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        • #5
          Originally posted by pampa168 View Post
          4) Germany doesn't loose territories to Poland.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by pampa168 View Post
            What about a softer Versailles treaty? If the treaty were not so hard to Germany it could have prevent a WWII?

            Conditions:

            1) Germany has to pay minimal reparations? (a little less that they really finally paid).
            2) Germany losses its colonies (it has the main part of the war payment).
            3) The German army is not reduced or its air force prohibited.
            4) Germany doesn't loose territories to Poland.
            5) Alsace and Lorena is returned to France.
            6) The Ruhr is not occupied by the allied.
            The conditions are much too lenient for the Entente to ever consider;

            1) Fine
            2) inevitable (and addition to it)
            3) Never happen. They could try to be clever and specify that no aircraft with less than 2 engines can be built. Eliminates fighters... maybe.
            4) Nope, and it's in German interests to have part of Poland in what was Germany. A successful Russian invasion of Poland would mean Germany would have to step forward, eliminating a buffer state that Russia might prefer to have.
            5) Oh Hell no, that's a given
            6) Not an issue until 1923

            Originally posted by pampa168 View Post
            Questions:

            This conditions could be enough to make pay Germany but not made then fell humiliated?
            It could have prevented the economic crisis in Germany in the 20s?
            It could have prevented the rise of the Nazi Party?
            It could have prevented the WWII?

            or the Nazi Party or similar was inevitable and also the WWII?
            Hmmm...
            It was mainly the clause that made Germany accept all the blame for the war that infuriated them, and lead to worse things.
            Yes, in hindsight.
            Maybe
            I dunno, but its hard to see how they could have done any worse.
            "Why is the Rum gone?"

            -Captain Jack

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dashy View Post
              A few points.

              1. France is never going to allow Germany to retain it's army and airforce

              2. the Reperations were to repair damage in France, which was extensive. If they were less, the French would probably launch another assault into Germany before they could recover to take their reperations by force.

              3. The Versailles Treaty was very lenient, thanks to Wilson the Germans got off lightly (Comapred to the Russians in 1917, and Planned Anglo-Frank treaties).

              the one thing that could have really prevented a WW2 was America backing it's creation, the Leauge of Nations. They set up something that needed their full support and promptly abandoned it, had Wilson not interfered with the Versailles Treaty, it's quite likely Germany would have been partitioned, French possilby annexing the Rhur, the Poolish and Chzeks more territory, while the Remaining Germanic states were split up again, with garuntees of independence from Britian and France.


              This.....x23456789. What many fail to realize, is that from the onset Clemenceau and Foch had actually discussed plans for a pre-Bismarck Germany, each province acquiring something from autonomy to full independence. Fostering economic/political competition amongst them was seen as the best way to ensure no repeat of WW 1. I've even read that Clemenceau may have seen this as a buffer against the new Communist threat which arose in Russia. The logic behind this being that no matter how fractured the German provinces were vis-a-vis to eachother, they would possibly prefer a friendship/alliance of sorts with Fr/UK as opposed to anything with the Russians.
              You'll live, only the best get killed.

              -General Charles de Gaulle

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi

                It is said that Ludendorff originally expected the Fourteen Points to mean Germany could keep control of the Ukraine. I would not expect the Allies to allow that but I would expect that they guaranteed the Ukraine's independence.

                Further I would expect the Allies to allow Ludendorff to continue operations in the Baltic's and White Russia. The more dismantled and suppressed the Russians are the better. I would have allowed Germany to push its border to the Vistula excluding Warsaw.

                Danzig should have remained German with the Allies re-creating a Polish-Lithuanian kingdom. Though the Lithuanians and Poles did not get along it is likely they would have remained unified being surrounded by Russia and Germany... of course I would include Minks in the deal just to grind Russia a bit more.

                For Finland I would have included Murmansk and all of the peninsula in the deal - St. Petersburgh becomes a free city and the Russians are denied two ports with Nerva going to Estonia.

                If you cannot tell already my plan was more about crushing Russia than Germany.

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                • #9
                  The treaty was fine, it just wasn't enforced enough.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                    Hmmm...
                    It was mainly the clause that made Germany accept all the blame for the war that infuriated them, and lead to worse things.
                    That clause was included because if not there was no way to made Germany to paid war damages. It has to be guilty of initiating the war, to do that.

                    Probably the way that the whole situation was managed. Germany accept the armistice (they never surrender, like in the WWII), because of Wilson's 13 points. But when they arrive to sign the treaty the conditions were completely different. If they knew about the final conditions probably they would have fight several months more... They would have loose anyway, but probably it would have been enough defeated to accept the conditions of the Versailles treaty. Germany was not felt defeated and that was the problem.

                    Probably to divide Germany in small states not only would have been inconvenient in terms of protection from the communism, but also a hell of a fight to implement. Nations are forged in war, and the Germans were already a nation, divide them it would have generates a lot of small wars of reunification and something like the WWII maybe a little bit later.... Sorry Clemenceau but 1919 was not 1819.

                    And I have doubt that the allied armies would have made of police of that, because again Germans were defeated in the field but there were not defeated in their minds....

                    But returning to the topic.

                    A softer Versailles treaty, could have made possible a democratic Germany without Nazis? and more important without WWII?

                    By the way, did you know that in 1989 in the German reunification, some French members of the government said publicly that: "They loved so much Germany that they preferred that they were still two". Probably Clemenceau had smiled in his tomb.
                    G'stain, Speaker of the High Senate of the Cat People

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pampa168 View Post
                      By the way, did you know that in 1989 in the German reunification, some French members of the government said publicly that: "They loved so much Germany that they preferred that they were still two". Probably Clemenceau had smiled in his tomb.
                      That was a weird time to be alive... let alone to be an American walking around in Germany seeing all of it happen.

                      Six months earlier the Germans had laughed at me when I said it was inevitable that the two halves would be reunited someday. And then they were walking aorund, happy but they had that Deer in the Headlights look as if they could not believe it was really happening... let alone a clue as to what to do about it.
                      The people with a plan for everything, caught totally flat-footed.
                      Classic.
                      "Why is the Rum gone?"

                      -Captain Jack

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pampa168 View Post
                        By the way, did you know that in 1989 in the German reunification, some French members of the government said publicly that: "They loved so much Germany that they preferred that they were still two". Probably Clemenceau had smiled in his tomb.
                        Originally attributed to novelist Francois Mauriac and I think it was also attributed to Francois Mitterand.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by pampa168 View Post
                          What about a softer Versailles treaty? If the treaty were not so hard to Germany it could have prevent a WWII?

                          Conditions:

                          1) Germany has to pay minimal reparations? (a little less that they really finally paid).
                          2) Germany losses its colonies (it has the main part of the war payment).
                          3) The German army is not reduced or its air force prohibited.
                          4) Germany doesn't loose territories to Poland.
                          5) Alsace and Lorena is returned to France.
                          6) The Ruhr is not occupied by the allied.

                          Questions:

                          This conditions could be enough to make pay Germany but not made then fell humiliated?
                          It could have prevented the economic crisis in Germany in the 20s?
                          It could have prevented the rise of the Nazi Party?
                          It could have prevented the WWII?

                          or the Nazi Party or similar was inevitable and also the WWII?
                          The French would not allow a still armed Germany. As for Poland . The formation of Poland was 1 of those European bits of horse trading.,
                          The Danzig matter could have been dealt with better, just how I am unsure.
                          Reperations that would have to have happened
                          The Germans felt about the Ruhr as the French did Alsace Lorraine .
                          German colonies well losing them lost them nothing.
                          Could all the abopve prevented the NAZI's rise to power ? Given the world economy was on its back andf Germany especially . No. Also Hitler wanted to take power , he tried in 1923 the Beer Hall Putsch and failed so he come back to a Germany in disorder and tries top bring his form of order , and is successful unfortunately. So we have to fight WW II . One thing we didn't do at least in the west post 1945 was try and keep the Germans from developing as an industrial nation. Though the USA Sec Treasury Morganthau had a plan that would have turned germany into an soley agarian state. Never would have worked some other nut case would have arisen and we would have had another war on our hands > Or worse the Germans ask Stalin to move west, theres a nightmare for you.

                          "To all who serve , have or will serve , Thank You"

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