Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

No Great Depression

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Yankee View Post
    Mussolini was once a memeber of the Italian comunist party do you think with no world wide dpression he would stay with the comunists or go with the facist as he evntully did ?
    Can't recall him being a member of the party although he was editor of a left-wing news journal in 1919. But he swapped sides and joined the far right after a failed Nationalist uprising that year (forgive the lack of details, I'm relying on material I read in 1996!). From there on he was a committed Fascist. As Italian leader he was admired and respected both abroad and at home and it's questionable just how far his reputation would have slid without the Great Depression. His motivation for the invasions of Albania and Abyssinia are a little murky (iirc) but they are the kind of thing dictatorial governments get up to in order to distract a restive home population from economic difficulties.
    Signing out.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Yankee View Post
      Mussolini was once a memeber of the Italian comunist party do you think with no world wide dpression he would stay with the comunists or go with the facist as he evntully did ?
      Mussolini was active in the Swiss Socialist party, and then in the Italian Socialist Party. He was a editor of the party newspaper through 1913 I remember. I cant remember any period he was with a "communist" party or advocated standard Marxist doctrine. Despite his sucess as a party organizer and party journal editor his views were not orthodox socialist for the era and certainly not Marxist or like the Russian Bolshiviks. His interest in Nietszche pre 1914 paralled that of the future Facists of Germany and other nations. The ideas of elitism he derived from Nietszche & similar 19th Century thinkers ran directly counter to Marxist dogma, and placed him at odds with the Socialist party line & other leaders. his expulsion from the Italian Socialist Party revolved around his disagreement with their anti war doctrine & opposition to Italian entry in to the Great War.

      There were no 'Facists' for Mussolini to "go with". He & his friends created the Facist Party and first used the name " Fascisti" in 1914. Basically they originated the fundamentals of the European facist movement.

      Finally all that occured 10 to 15 years before the Depression. Mussolini's Facist party came to power in 1922, over seven years before the Depression started.

      Bottom line here Mussolini and Facism as a politcal movement were well established in Europe long before the Depression.
      Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 28 Jan 12, 16:49.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
        Mussolini was active in the Swiss Socialist party, and then in the Italian Socialist Party. He was a editor of the party newspaper through 1913 I remember. I cant remember any period he was with a "communist" party or advocated standard Marxist doctrine. Despite his sucess as a party organizer and party journal editor his views were not orthodox socialist for the era and certainly not Marxist or like the Russian Bolshiviks. His interest in Nietszche pre 1914 paralled that of the future Facists of Germany and other nations. The ideas of elitism he derived from Nietszche & similar 19th Century thinkers ran directly counter to Marxist dogma, and placed him at odds with the Socialist party line & other leaders. his expulsion from the Italian Socialist Party revolved around his disagreement with their anti war doctrine & opposition to Italian entry in to the Great War.

        There were no 'Facists' for Mussolini to "go with". He & his friends created the Facist Party and first used the name " Fascisti" in 1914. Basically they originated the fundamentals of the European facist movement.

        Finally all that occured 10 to 15 years before the Depression. Mussolini's Facist party came to power in 1922, over seven years before the Depression started.

        Bottom line here Mussolini and Facism as a politcal movement were well established in Europe long before the Depression.
        Okay I stand corrected at 64 yeras old my mind gets a bit fuzzy at times . Thanks Guys

        Comment


        • #34
          Actually i'm unsure if there was a radical Marxist party of any sort in Italy pre 1914. They may have all been in the radical wing of the socialist party. Any experts on Italian politics of 1900-1915 able to clarify this

          Comment


          • #35
            The consensus here looks like without depression there is no way that the Nazis takes power. But still is possible some kind of conflict about the war reparations... I agree that there is no way that Germany will pay war reparations until 1980...

            But the problem is reduced to two variables (there is a trhead about that that is currently active in this forum). Depression + Versailles (as humilliation of the treaty, war reparations, etc) = Nazis in power and war.

            Versailles only = No Nazis in power? Possible conflict for war reparations in the 40s? maybe.

            Depression = Nazis in power? (I believe not), probably no WWII also?

            No Depression, no Versailles = ??? Germany became the guarantee of Europe against communism?
            G'stain, Speaker of the High Senate of the Cat People

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by pampa168 View Post
              The consensus here looks like without depression there is no way that the Nazis takes power. But still is possible some kind of conflict about the war reparations... I agree that there is no way that Germany will pay war reparations until 1980...

              But the problem is reduced to two variables (there is a trhead about that that is currently active in this forum). Depression + Versailles (as humilliation of the treaty, war reparations, etc) = Nazis in power and war.

              Versailles only = No Nazis in power? Possible conflict for war reparations in the 40s? maybe.
              Maybe, maybe not. The Dawes plan was one of several efforts to rationalize the reparations payments. It was becoming clear to the bankers and other folks who could do math how the reparations payments were screwing with the still damaged global financial system. Rabble rousing politicians (and there were others aside from Hitler) garnered votes by howling abut the Versailles Treaty, but thinking leaders were trying to figure out how to get the whole mess behind and move on.

              Originally posted by pampa168 View Post
              Depression = Nazis in power? (I believe not), probably no WWII also?

              WWII as we know it was a product of Hitlers insanity, Even the bulk of the German population was fundamentally anti war in 1939. A Japanese China war perhaps, and perhaps a Pacific war, perhaps some local wars around the periphery of Europe.

              Originally posted by pampa168 View Post
              No Depression, no Versailles = ??? Germany became the guarantee of Europe against communism?
              The Communists were in decline from the mid 1920s. Their agitation counted for less as the post war economy improved in the second half of the 1920s. and of course Facist governments in Italy, Hungary, ect... were busy arresting or assasinating Communist leaders. Conservatives in France and Britain were betting their foriegn policy money on Poland and Rumania to keep things stable in the east. Germany with its small Reichswehr would not be much of a guarantee, and none of the central European nations wanted German soldiers 'helping'. In any case the Bolshiviks had been fairly quiet and carefull since 1922.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by OzGirl1985
                I have to disagree with you on this. I think that Hitler had an agenda all along and would have found another way to start the Holocaust.
                He may have had an agenda, but he'd be hard-pressed to achieve much in the way of genocide as a private citizen or very minor politician.
                Diadochi Rising Wargame:
                King Pairisades I of the Bosporan Kingdom

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Anacreon View Post
                  He may have had an agenda, but he'd be hard-pressed to achieve much in the way of genocide as a private citizen or very minor politician.
                  Indeed. Without the stock market crash and Germany's subsequent economic problems he can't get elected.

                  Another interesting what if is what would have happened had the US government not created the depression? The stock market crash it's self did not create the depression, it was government intervention and regulation that caused it. In the 1st year following the crash unemployment never rose above 10%, it spiked and plateaued around 9%. It wasn't until Tariff Act of 1930 (Smoot-Hawley) that unemployment rose again. Unemployment would later hit highs of 25-30% when FDR was in power.

                  Assuming the government didn't impose all these regulations and price controls (which is what Britain did IIRC, and thus the crash just caused a minor recession), then the USA would have looked very different. It might have had interesting ramifications on the political landscape in USA. FDR might have never been elected.

                  I assume Germany will look pretty much the same though.
                  A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by OzGirl1985
                    I have to disagree with you on this. I think that Hitler had an agenda all along and would have found another way to start the Holocaust.
                    Got anything to back this up aside from the predictible quotes from Mein Kampf?

                    Hitler's agenda all along was restoring Germany to greatness & creating his empire to the east. His racial obsessions, while important, tended to come second. I'm yet to see much evidence that there was even a clear intent to exterminate Jews wholesale before the invasion of Russia. Hitler had control over millions of Jews before then and had killed on only a small scale.

                    Additionally, just how is Hitler going to magic himself into power without the specific set of circumstances that allowed him to do so? He was a clever politician, but most of all a lucky one (what was it Napoleon said about preferring lucky Generals?). An awful lot of things needed to happen to put Hitelr in the right place at the right time wiht the right resources. Take away even one or two small elements - let alone the defining event of the interwar era - and all you have is one more fanatical German nationalist with a bunch of thugs on the payroll (if that).
                    Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

                    Comment

                    Latest Topics

                    Collapse

                    Working...
                    X