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  • According to the book I have TA, the Type 97 you mention was available only in insignificant numbers. The 94 was their main 37mm gun until they replaced it with the 47mm in late 1942.

    Originally posted by 1st cavalry View Post
    For 1936 it was a good gun , not comparable to 37mm pak but comparable to 1934 Czech antitank gun also mounted on PZkwg 35(t).
    from where does the data on armor penetration comes from ?
    keep in mind that soviet bt and t-26 had very thin armor .
    World War 2 Infantry Anti-tank tactics, Rottmann

    The cannon was also either manhandled (divided into 8 pieces) or towed by an animal.
    Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
    Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
    Barbarossa Derailed I & II
    Battle of Kalinin October 1941

    Comment


    • an excellent link supporting Exorcists theory

      Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
      Which shows, as I expected, that a 1940 attack wasn't going to work. The Red Army was just as surprised by the swift fall of France as France was by the sudden fall of Poland.

      They should have prepared for an attack in the Spring of 1941.
      If they had, the USSR could have attacked when the Germans were attacking Yugoslavia and Greece, thus catching them with "one foot in a bucket", as they say.
      With more tanks as as many aircraft as the rest of the world's armies, combined, they could have kept WW2 off Russian soil, perhaps for the duration.
      http://www.historykb.com/Uwe/Forum.a...sti-Oil-Fields

      Instead of repeating &interpeting, I woudl reccomend a look
      The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post

        World War 2 Infantry Anti-tank tactics, Rottmann

        The cannon was also either manhandled (divided into 8 pieces) or towed by an animal.
        Under the same conditions the german pak 36 had 29 mm penetration , so while better is not significantly better .

        the frontal armor of the bt which was the main soviet tank at nomohan would be penetrated at that range , more so in the case of side armor .

        According to Kolomiets the soviet tank losses were :
        59 bt 7 (22 mm frontal armor )
        157 bt-5 (13 mm frontal armor )
        20 t-26
        17 t-37

        Comment


        • The Panzerjager 37mm used two types of AP ammunition, one normal AP and one with a tungsten core. Penetration at was 36 @500 and [email protected]

          Standard combat load for each 37mm gun was 250 rounds, with 30 'tungsten core' rounds reserved for AT work. The guns were towed by motor vehicle.

          There was a third type that penetrated [email protected] but this was not widely used.

          The AT platoons in 41' used 37 and 50mm guns.
          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

          Comment


          • This snippet may show who-did-what to the Soviet tank force in 1939:

            The war in the China theater threatened to broaden even more sharply
            in 1938 over a Mongolian border incident near Lake Khasan between
            Japanese and Soviet forces. Tensions erupted again in May 1939 along the
            Halka River (Khalkin-Gol) in an action that became known to the Japanese
            as the Nomonhan Incident. Both sides built up their forces in the region,
            and full-scale fighting broke out in the summer. The Japanese Komatsubara
            Force was built around the 23rd Division, supported by Lieutenant
            General Masaomi Yasuoka’s 1st Tank Group from the former Independent
            Mixed Brigade. This force included the 3rd and 4th Tank Regiments with
            26 Type 89B Otsus, eight Type 89A Yi-Gos, four Type 97 Chi-Ha medium
            tanks, 35 Type 95 Ha-Go light tanks, ten Type 94s, and four Type 97
            tankettes. In addition to the tank units, the Japanese infantry and cavalry
            had about 50 tankettes and armored cars. The Soviet tank force in the area
            was far more substantial. It included five mechanized brigades of 550 tanks
            and about 450 armored cars. The fighting went very badly for the Japanese
            armored units right from the start of the attack. The Yasuoka detachment,
            including the two tank regiments and two infantry regiments, managed
            to penetrate the defenses of the Soviet 9th Moto-Armored Brigade on
            July 2, 1939. However, in four days of fighting the Japanese tank force was
            decimated, with about 42 of its 73 tanks put out of commission. Most of
            these were knocked out by Soviet 45mm tank and antitank guns, which had
            better range than the Japanese weapons. The Japanese tank crews claimed
            32 Soviet BT tanks and 35 armored cars.
            Japanese losses were somewhat
            mitigated by the fact that all but 13 tanks were recovered and repaired. The
            failure of the Japanese tanks led to their recall on July 9, 1939, and they
            were sent back to garrison.
            Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
            Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
            Barbarossa Derailed I & II
            Battle of Kalinin October 1941

            Comment


            • Comparing the Germans circa 1940/41 in a defensive war against a weakened Soviet Army that had gone through a massive pogram in the west is valid to the situation of the Japanese in 1939, the Japanese had no real offensive capabilities against their Soviet counterparts, they lack sutable tanks in both quality and in numbers, not only that, they lack sufficient anti-tank capabilities. The Japanese Army was up to that point was centred around the Infantry, they had large Triangle and Square Divisions, but had virtually next to nothing in heavy support, they lacked substantial heavy artillery for a start, the bulk of the Japanese artillery was medium range 75mm artillery while the Soviets could field heavy artillery 175mm plus.

              Remember the substantial losses that Soviet accrued during their war with Finland in their two wars in 1939 and 1940, although the weight of numbers won the day for the Soviets, but now we are facing the prospect of the Soviets now taking on the German in 1940/41.

              The Germans had one of the best anti tank gun throughout the war and that was the PaK 36/38 88mm, not only that but the Germans could field the PaK 75mm in tank destroyers.

              The Germans had the advantage in equipment as all their armoured units were kitted out with radios, their Soviet counterparts were'nt (until they began to recieve 10's of thousands of US and British made Radios under lend lease in 1943), the Soviet tank commanders had to relay orders by semiphore (meaning the use of flags), their tanks were highly unreliable as they broke down in their thousands, many could not be repaired as the Soviet had no spares, and woeful logistics, even when logistics could be established their trucks broke down in their thousands.

              The Soviets also had no reliable Air Force, many of their aircraft were at least a full generation behing the Germans, that's why they lost over 20,000 in the first few months of Operation Barbarossa.

              The add to this, the pogram that Stalin and Beria ordered in 1939, thousands of the best officers in the Soviet Army, Navy and Air Force were executed or sent off to the Gulags, their best commanders at the time were no longer there, which showed up during the first months of Operation Barbarossa.

              Realistically the Soviets had no offensive capabilities, but the Germans certainly could have defensive capabilities, the result the Soviets would be bled white and then from East Prussia and Slovakia the Germans will then unleash 150+ divisions including 20 Panzer Divisions and cause woeful substantial losses, within months after that German forces are marching into Moscow raising the Swastika over the Kremlin.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                The Soviets also had no reliable Air Force, many of their aircraft were at least a full generation behing the Germans, that's why they lost over 20,000 in the first few months of Operation Barbarossa.
                Uh, maybe the fact that the VVS was taken by surprise with thousands of aircraft nicely lined up on June 22, along the runways of forward air bases that had been meticulously reconned by the Luftwaffe in the days before, also has something to do with its initial losses.
                Michele

                Comment


                • Remember the substantial losses that Soviet accrued during their war with Finland in their two wars in 1939 and 1940, although the weight of numbers won the day for the Soviets, but now we are facing the prospect of the Soviets now taking on the German in 1940/41.

                  What two wars ? There was only one war.




                  The Germans had the advantage in equipment as all their armoured units were kitted out with radios, their Soviet counterparts were'nt (until they began to recieve 10's of thousands of US and British made Radios under lend lease in 1943), the Soviet tank commanders had to relay orders by semiphore (meaning the use of flags), their tanks were highly unreliable as they broke down in their thousands, many could not be repaired as the Soviet had no spares, and woeful logistics, even when logistics could be established their trucks broke down in their thousands.

                  And how many German tanks will be broken down by accidents ? Late German tanks were all but reliable.

                  The Soviets also had no reliable Air Force, many of their aircraft were at least a full generation behing the Germans, that's why they lost over 20,000 in the first few months of Operation Barbarossa.
                  See Michele's post.

                  The add to this, the pogram that Stalin and Beria ordered in 1939, thousands of the best officers in the Soviet Army, Navy and Air Force were executed or sent off to the Gulags, their best commanders at the time were no longer there, which showed up during the first months of Operation Barbarossa.

                  What best commanders ? Plenty of those "best" commanders were at their places just because of their performances during the Civil War.


                  Realistically the Soviets had no offensive capabilities, but the Germans certainly could have defensive capabilities, the result the Soviets would be bled white and then from East Prussia and Slovakia the Germans will then unleash 150+ divisions including 20 Panzer Divisions and cause woeful substantial losses, within months after that German forces are marching into Moscow raising the Swastika over the Kremlin.
                  They didn't menage to achieve it with a surprise attack on a unprepared foe. Fanboys are so fanboys.
                  There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

                  Comment


                  • www.histours.ru

                    Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

                    Comment


                    • Even if they get crushed, like IMO, would most likely happen or at least severe defeats at first, they'd still be fighting in enemy territory and not deep in Russia.
                      Wisdom is personal

                      Comment


                      • The key to Soviet offensive capability is their restructuring of their military during mid 1941-mid 1943 through 'real world' combat experience. Before that, the abilities of their military is not adequate for marching into Berlin.

                        It is difficult to say if the 'reborn' Red Army could have appeared if not for the German invasion.
                        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Emtos View Post
                          What best commanders ?
                          Your kidding, right?
                          How about Rokkossovsky (sic) ?
                          He went through the rest of his life with stainless steel teeth because the NKVD knocked all of his out while he was imprisoned by them.
                          How about the General that codified Deep Battle?
                          Want to go into a full list, or maybe the big Purge merits a thread of its own, say, over in the RKKA section?
                          "Why is the Rum gone?"

                          -Captain Jack

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                            Your kidding, right?
                            How about Rokkossovsky (sic) ?
                            He went through the rest of his life with stainless steel teeth because the NKVD knocked all of his out while he was imprisoned by them.
                            How about the General that codified Deep Battle?
                            Want to go into a full list, or maybe the big Purge merits a thread of its own, say, over in the RKKA section?
                            Kidding I'm not.

                            http://www.warmech.ru/1941war/isay_red-vp22.html

                            http://www.istrodina.com/rodina_arti...p3?id=229&n=13


                            I will not traduce everything, just the most important.

                            Summing up the work of the troops BVO and KVO in Belarusian and Polesie maneuvers A.I. Sedyakin exposed the main sin of the Red Army at time of Tukhachevsky, Yakir and Uborevych: "Tactical training of troops, especially fighters, offices, a platoon, machine, tank platoon , company, did not satisfy me. But it's they who will fight in the battle to take the victory, take the success by "the horns" (17). More strikingly expressed it (after the shooting of "talented commanders" November 21, 1937) S.M. Budyonny: "we sometimes hover in very high operational and strategic levels, and with what we will operate, if a company is not good, squad is not good, detachment is not good?" (18)
                            What does the published statistics say ? On 1 January 1937 the total number of command personnel of the Red Army was 206,250 people. For 10 months of 1937 from the ranks of the Red Army commanders were fired 13,811 people, of which 3776 people were arrested. As you can see, it is not even a tenth of. At the same time, not all dismissed were arrested. Moreover, not all of these people were victims of repression. In addition to natural attrition (due to illness, disability, death) from the Red Army were dismissed for drunkenness, embezzlement, theft, corruption. In 1938-1939 also went the opposite process - dismissed and arrested recovered and returned to duty.

                            Summing up, we can assess the extent of political "cleansing" of the Red Army as follows. In the years 1937-1939, were arrested 9579 people and command personnel fired for political reasons 19 106 people. Of those arrested in 1457 were restored in 1938-1939, and the number of laid-off - 9247 people. Thus, claims about the "destruction of 40,000 officers" in any way is not true.

                            The total number of officers who had been repressed in the years 1937-1939 (excluding the Air Force and Navy), was arrested 8122 and 9859 retired from the army. And not all those arrested were later executed.

                            Paradoxically, the - some of the indicators after the repression even rose slightly. By the beginning of 1941 7.1% of command personnel had higher military education. Up to repression in 1936, the figure was 6.6%. With an Academic education in 1936, there were 13,000 persons of command personnel, in 1939, after the actual end of the repression - 23 thousand, in 1941 - 28 thousand officers

                            If the Red Army in 1936, the state required 58,582 lieutenants, in 1941 they had to have 147,320 people. If you even go to mass the title of "Lieutenant" after passing the simple test, then such "students" in 1941 required 95,797 people. In 1936, the state needed a 5501 major, and in 1941 - already 20 430.

                            From 1936 until June 1941 the officer corps had more than tripled. Figures of repressed commanders simply drown in the mass of new posts generated by the rapid growth of the army in the face of imminent war.

                            Thus, the commanders repressed in the 37th, failed to prepare the Red Army for war with Germany, who were unable were able to train their troops. And the roots of the disaster 1941 go not the 1937 but to the 1917 th ! It was then, when was broken the Russian military tradition in general (47), and the tradition of training and education of soldiers and officers in particular.
                            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Michele View Post
                              Uh, maybe the fact that the VVS was taken by surprise with thousands of aircraft nicely lined up on June 22, along the runways of forward air bases that had been meticulously reconned by the Luftwaffe in the days before, also has something to do with its initial losses.
                              Something but not all.
                              VVS had 6133 aircraft deployed in the western districts (without leningrad) plus 1300 long range bombers .
                              even with 2000 aircraft lost in the first day it still outnumbered the LW .

                              Comment


                              • What's valuable is the trained pilots, not the planes right? Pilots are very expensive and time consuming to train in a war time environment.
                                Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                                Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                                Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                                Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                                Comment

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