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June 1941: US declare war on Japan.

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  • Originally posted by dutched View Post
    I have been searching for an actual cause, pausible enough to get the
    backing of public opinion behind the move of the Government to go to war.

    Ed.
    You really should take a close look at the Gallup Polls.
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    • Originally posted by dutched View Post
      You are correct in your assumptions. Additionally I was bearing in mind that the US Government, would be hard pushed to increasing their Defence budget in order to expand the equipment of the US armed forces against this
      backdrop.
      1938 was when the US Congress begain reversing the military budget reduction of the previous two decades. The increase was modest, but was based on further increases & long range plans were approved. ie: the plans for then next two classes of modern battleships were approved for eventual funding; Limited production of the super heavy four engine bombers was approved.

      Originally posted by dutched View Post
      Am I correct in my belief that the Lend Lease legislation had a
      stipulation that allowed the US Goverment to divert armaments for it's
      own use should the need arise? I was reasoning that Lend Lease would allow
      an expansion of the US armaments industry w/o the US Government
      immediately having to invest in arms contracts. Pearl made this stipulation redundant, but in the context of this thread it might still be of use.

      Ed.
      The concept of Lend Lease was not in place in 1937-38, if it existed at all. The Nuetrality Acts were in place and fairly restrictive about what weapons a foreign government might purchase from the US. That had reduced interest in US military developments in the 1930s. I suspect only the Japanese had a broad idea of the technical aspects of US made weapons after the 1920s. The development policy of the US Army and USN had been to forgo large scale weapons purchases. Congress had zero interest in paying for those, and conservative politicians argued that 1890s design artillery & rifles, horse draft, & dreadnought era ships were entirely adaquate. The funds available for weapons went mostly to small test batches, and with the object of keeping as many competing companies in business as practical. It was thought better to keep design engineers and prototype builders busy improving on the small batches purchased.

      The largest weapons problem of 1938 would be the small and obsolete production facilities. The USN might very well be able to order up something like a F4F Wild Cat, but getting more than a couple hundred built by 1939 would be nearly impossible. Retooling existing facilities like Detroits automobile industry would require a year or more to reach a large scale output. I suspect War Plan Orange included consideration of this problem in its timeline for large scale offensive operations.
      Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 10 Dec 11, 19:50.

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      • Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
        1938 was when the US Congress begain reversing the military budget reduction of the previous two decades. The increase was modest, but was based on further increases & long range plans were approved. ie: the plans for then next two classes of modern battleships were approved for eventual funding; Limited production of the super heavy four engine bombers was approved.



        The concept of Lend Lease was not in place in 1937-38, if it existed at all. The Nuetrality Acts were in place and fairly restrictive about what weapons a foreign government might purchase from the US. That had reduced interest in US military developments in the 1930s. I suspect only the Japanese broad idea of the technical aspects of US made weapons after the 1920s. The development policy of the US Army and USN had been to forgo large scale weapons purchases. Congress had zero interest in paying for those, and conservative politicians argued that 1890s design artillery & rifles, horse draft, & dreadnought era ships were entirely adaquate. The funds available for weapons went mostly to small test batches, and with the object of keeping as many competing companies in business as practical. It was thought better to keep design engineers and prototype builders busy improving on the small batches purchased.

        The largest weapons problem of 1938 would be the small and obsolete production facilities. The USN might very well be able to order up something like a F4F Wild Cat, but getting more than a couple hundred built by 1939 would be nearly impossible. Retooling existing facilities like Detroits automobile industry would require a year or more to reach a large scale output. I suspect War Plan Orange included consideration of this problem in its timeline for large scale offensive operations.
        Hence my grounds for a 1941 time scale for this thread. Imo a much more favourable climate politically and industrially/financially.

        Ed.
        The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

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        • Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
          You really should take a close look at the Gallup Polls.
          I did look at the polls and your synopsis. And these look most favourably
          for the thread period (1941). What I meant to say in looking for a plausible cause to take up arms. Looking for an incident of sufficient magnitude
          for the electorate to unreservedly rally behind the government's decision to go to war. Of course prior to Pearl. Naturally one could hold a wet finger in the air and guess from what direction the wind could have been blowing at various points in the period leading to the thread datum of June 1941.
          Psychologically strongest would be the first half of 1941.

          Ed.
          Last edited by dutched; 10 Dec 11, 19:07.
          The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by dutched View Post
            Hence my grounds for a 1941 time scale for this thread. Imo a much more favourable climate politically and industrially/financially.

            Ed.
            Opps

            sorry wrong thread

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            • Ok, try again

              Originally posted by dutched View Post
              You are correct in your assumptions. Additionally I was bearing in mind that the US Government, would be hard pushed to increasing their Defence budget in order to expand the equipment of the US armed forces against this
              backdrop.
              Not really, the fiscal dam in the US military budget broke in 1940 with the collapse of France. That shock allowed the war hawks to ram through the various emergency war powers acts. That authorized a full blown mobilization of the US miltiary & a blank check being handed to the US Army & Navy

              Originally posted by dutched View Post
              Am I correct in my belief that the Lend Lease legislation had a
              stipulation that allowed the US Goverment to divert armaments for it's
              own use should the need arise?.
              Yes, and many of the items sent to the USSR & British were those the US military did not see as 'must have' requirements. That is the military vetted everything that went onto the LL list. Perhaps a few items were sent over objections, but most were approved as not absolutely essential.

              Originally posted by dutched View Post
              I was reasoning that Lend Lease would allow
              an expansion of the US armaments industry w/o the US Government
              immediately having to invest in arms contracts. Pearl made this stipulation redundant, but in the context of this thread it might still be of use.
              If you mean cash flowing into US industry, that is correct, tho that started with the revision of the Nuetrality Acts effective Nov 1939 & the start of the cash and carry policy.

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              • Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                Not really, the fiscal dam in the US military budget broke in 1940 with the collapse of France. That shock allowed the war hawks to ram through the various emergency war powers acts. That authorized a full blown mobilization of the US miltiary & a blank check being handed to the US Army & Navy.
                Thanks for this. I was not aware that teh fall of France had this much of an impact on US policy making.

                Ed.
                The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by dutched View Post
                  Thanks for this. I was not aware that teh fall of France had this much of an impact on US policy making.

                  Ed.
                  Before the end of the year the bulk of the National Guard and Army/Navy reservists had returned to full time military service, and a draft was started. Acceptance of just those items, let alone all the other actions taken, were notice that the Isolationist agenda was terminally ill.

                  The collapse of France was a severe shock, both in the public mind, and to the business community. The Brit blockade had been disruptive, but the folks who did business in France and the other nations overrun in 1940 became rapidly aware the new German order would be catastrophic to their business connections. Those who were politically aware also noticed that Germany was not entering into any sort of negotiations for a permanent peace with any of the nations it had overrun. Instead industrial level looting, currency manipulation, and overt manipulation of the European banks occured.

                  For the general public there was the news of submarines running amuck, including nuetral ships being sunk in the North Atlantic. Everyone over the age of twenty five remembered that from the Great War and where it had led. In the autum the news of Japans demands on Vichy France vis Indo China began trickling into the news. National defense came to seem a important thing.

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