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No Pacific War in WWII, Japan turns everything against China

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Jenisch View Post
    The IJA never obtained green light for an offensive against the Soviets. And this was ALSO because it was fighting with most of it's force and resources in China. Resources were also directed for Pacific operations.
    Yes, and the Soviet Union also kept the bulk of its forces and its newest equipment in the European part of Russia. So what?

    You can have sure the IJA, specially with government help, would put much of the stuff in practice much quicker if need to put in operation against the Soviets. Nobody puts a new doctrine from the night to the day.
    You have already been explained the Japanese did't learn anything. There was no new doctrine.

    Also, the Japanese doctrine was not so bad as you say, specially in the decisive Eastern Manchuria theater.
    The Japanese were defeated when they thought they were strong in 1939 and totally humiliated in 1945.

    And for last, I already told you that I don't need to agree with everything from Coox.
    Then why did you even bring up the source which smashed the last bits your flimsy argumentation?

    And the Soviets claimed 2 times.
    The Soviets never said they were oh so totally cool in the air. The Japanese were notorious for their overclaims, however you treat their words like a Bible. Once again, the Japanese records haven't been researched yet, while the Soviet sources were made available.

    I never ignored the Russians sources.
    Nope, you did ignore them.

    My goal is considerate the Axis perspective as well. But since the Axis lost, much of what they have to say is considerated as "loosers perspective", and this Glantz loves. I don't have to agreed with this.

    Of course they are "pathetically unfounded and presumptious". People who want to view the Axis perspective like me, always have to face this kind of insult. And if you continue, I will also start to attack you as well.
    You've come back with empty hands again and no new information. Weren't you taught to do your homework at school or you haven't left it yet? You are unable to present any reasonable case for the Japanese victory, you don't have any figures or factual information to support your arguments, and even the sources you've provided speak against you.

    All you do is make personal and national invectives against me and whine about US Army historians being pro-Soviet Yours is the most hilariously pathetic case of fanboyism I've ever seen anywhere on the Web
    www.histours.ru

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    • #47
      Originally posted by ShAA View Post
      Yes, and the Soviet Union also kept the bulk of its forces and its newest equipment in the European part of Russia. So what?
      That's my point. You are considerating Japan's position like if it was Germany in a war with the Soviets. It wasn't.

      You have already been explained the Japanese did't learn anything. There was no new doctrine.
      There were some doctrinal changes and new equipment introduced, but the most important lessons implemented were about the capabilities the Soviets could have in artillery and logistics to act accordingly (even so, such things were apparently very different in 1941 than in 1939). The IJA simply didn't understood this in Nomonhan, either by underestimation of the enemy, and/or by lack of Intelligence information. It's unfair to say they would deconsiderate this and other learnings in a hypotetical 1941 scenario, which also would focused in a favourable terrain to IJA tactics in Eastern Manchuria, heavily supported by air and naval forces. This, together with the Soviets difficult/inability to bring reinforcements, plus the fact that once such war started, the focus would be in Army equipment production and development, together with aircraft, all need to be considerated. I don't think such a war would be so one-sidded and simple.

      The Soviets never said they were oh so totally cool in the air. The Japanese were notorious for their overclaims, however you treat their words like a Bible. Once again, the Japanese records haven't been researched yet, while the Soviet sources were made available.
      Mate, if you belive I think the Japanese shoot down 1200 or more aircraft, no, I don't belive. They lost 162 aircraft to all combat causes in the Nomonhan Incident. The Soviet losses seems to be 207. Source: Kagero Monopraphs, Nakajima Ki-27 Nate.

      Nope, you did ignore them.
      Think I never did this. I just think the Japanese have their own perception of the happenings, and it must be considerated and respected as well.

      You've come back with empty hands again and no new information. Weren't you taught to do your homework at school or you haven't left it yet? You are unable to present any reasonable case for the Japanese victory, you don't have any figures or factual information to support your arguments, and even the sources you've provided speak against you.
      Well, first, I provided much information. But if you always want to desconsiderated the Japanese perspective with the Russian perspective, it becames totally nonsense. About my sources, they don't totally agree with me, but in many aspects they did, specially in the primary sources quotes. And yes, I tend to rely in primary Japanese sources because I think it's the best way to see the Axis perspective. The same for other countries.

      All you do is make personal and national invectives against me and whine about US Army historians being pro-Soviet Yours is the most hilariously pathetic case of fanboyism I've ever seen anywhere on the Web
      ...
      Last edited by Jenisch; 01 Dec 11, 12:38.

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      • #48
        It is interesting to ask what if those leading Japan had taken China seriously as their principal opponent rather than assuming that China was opposing Japan as the proxy of the USSR or the British Empire or the USA. I suspect that Japan's “best opportunity” to attack Sichuan was over 1939-41 well before the Pacific War. Japan did not concentrate on China in 1939 because, firstly, forces were removed from China in late 1938 to reinforce Manchuria and there was serious fighting at Khalkhin Gol (Nomonham) in Summer 1939 against the Soviet Union and secondly and less significantly, there was the Tientsin Incident threatening war against Britain at the same time. AFAIK there was little danger of a war against the USA over that period, not because America was willing to accept Japanese control of China but because America underestimated Japanese resolve and calculated that Japan would give up its attempt as it ran out of money.

        The POD for Japan attempting Wikipedia's Sichuan Plan might involve a change in the leadership of the IJA over 1938-9. Unfortunately, I do not understand the details of the clash between Lieutenant-Generals Tada Hayao, Vice Chief of the General Staff, and Tojo Hideki, Vice Minister of War. Tada certainly believed that the USSR was Japan's main enemy. Tojo apparently believed that Japan should have been quicker to commit larger forces to China (Butow, Tojo and the coming of War, page 105). A more extreme opponent of reinforcement to China, Ishiwara Kanji, had already been sidelined after 1937. Might Tada's death in an accident have caused Tojo's (and perhaps Doihara's?) view to have been accepted. However, what was Tojo's real view? His speech in November 1938 stated that Japan must arm for war against both China and the USSR. However, he seems to have regarded China as the more urgent issue (ibid, page 121).

        There seem to be three obvious issues: Might the IJA leadership have resolved to avoid clashes against the USSR to focus on China? Might they have succeeded in avoiding such clashes? Could a heavily reinforced IJA have taken Sichuan? If we want to push for further changes to give the IJA additional resources, we could even imagine “someone” asking whether it was worth building a navy to oppose American involvement in China if Japan could not defeat China without American involvement. The only plausible “someones” are Prince Konoe, hardly famous for analytical or decisive thinking, or the Emperor himself.

        In a similar spirit, we could imagine that the Japanese Government welcomes the German victory over France because now it can be sure that nobody is going to interfere in China rather than by making alliances with Germany.

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