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The most overrated general of WWII

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  • #16
    most overated?, skyvon, ehehehhhhh.

    but during the war i guess it was monty.

    afterwards, well,
    French Soldier: You don't frighten us, English pig dogs. Go and boil your bottoms, you sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called "Arthur King," you and all your silly English K-nig-hts.

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    • #17
      Just for that, the Huns will show no mercy on Moscow.

      As for MY Russian Generals, I think Finland would beg to differ

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      • #18
        Originally posted by SkyVon
        Just for that, the Huns will show no mercy on Moscow.

        As for MY Russian Generals, I think Finland would beg to differ

        lol, its my first try on EA dude, i don't even have troops to stop the persians from capturing moskow via a backdoor. i didnt knew they where at war automaticly.
        French Soldier: You don't frighten us, English pig dogs. Go and boil your bottoms, you sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called "Arthur King," you and all your silly English K-nig-hts.

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        • #19
          [email protected] was a devastating conflict which ended the careers of thousands of officers on all sides. Are there certain myths that surround all of these guys? Sure, that understandable given all the literature and 50 years. On the other hand WWII produced some of the finest large scale commanders the world has ever seen. The most experienced corps commander in the world right now probably has the equivilent of 2% of Patton, Zhukov, or von Manstein's actual combat experience. These guys were engaged in super high intensity warfare for years non-stop. And how many post-WW2 generals have commanded an entire army in combat for any length of time? Any army group? They can't be compared to generals from other periods because no modern general has ever commanded anything even remotely comparable in terms of the sheer size of their commands.

          Each had different advantages and handicaps to work within. It's difficult (and a bit unfair) to compare them directly.

          If you could combine the brute toughness of the Russian, the operational and tactical prowess of the German, the resourcefulness of the American and the professionalism of the Brit--you'd have one hell of a soldier!
          Editor-in-Chief
          GameSquad.com

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          • #20
            Reply re: Eisenhower, Monty, etc.

            In reply to various nominations in this thread:

            Eisenhower's true strategic genius was as a political general. That's why he, as Patton famously said, would be "a better president than he was a general." He had to hold together and keep moving forward an uneasy coalition between the U.S. and the U.K., while having to deal with one of the most extraordinary collections of powerful and independent personalities any military campaign has ever seen. His success should be measured by the "singing pig" standard: not whether he did it well, but whther he managed to do it at all.

            Monty was a very conservative leader, but he was in charge of an army which, except for small elite units, generally handled innovative and imaginative tactics and operations poorly. His true genius was that he realized the limitations of the British Army, and although somewhat to a fault, adjusted his tactics and strategy to compensate. Moreover, he had the extraordinary ability to inspire his troops, to make them believe in him, and to make them believe they could win the war against the Germans. That alone was worth the price of his faults in generalship.

            I don't understand the criticism of Rommel's performance once he returned to Europe. He was dealing with an untenable situation: the invasion was coming, he knew that the stand would have to be made on the beaches because of the massive airpower the Allies would throw into the invaion (an experience from North Africa not shared by his colleagues), but he did not have any say in where the German units were to be deployed, or in how much effort would be put into beach defenses. Once the invasion succeeded and the Allied troops were ashore, Allied airpower made the march inland pretty much a foregone conclusion.

            If you want to get an idea of what kind of a defensive general Rommel was, try playing Daniel McBride's "El Alamein_2.5" scenario for The Operational Art of War: A Century of Warfare. The scenario is designed to be played against a British computer opponent, and is a fairly realistic depiction of Rommel's situation at the Third Battle of El Alamein. Try making it to 28 turns (14 days) as he did; it's tough.

            Patton overrated?! Somebody's been playing in the medicine cabinet again

            How about Omar Bradley? A dull, plodding infantry general with all of the disadvantages of Montgomery but without the compensating insight into the limits of his army, as well as a total lack of charisma or ability to motivate his troops. He was also spiteful and petty, and allowed his personal likes and dislikes to color his dealings with other U.S. commanders (his problems iwth Patton, for example). And his Huertgen Forest offensive was one of the most (if not the most) ill-conceived, badly executed and wasteful operations by the U.S. armed forces in World War II. Bradley threw division after division against well-prepared, entrenched and experienced German forces, without effective air support, for no rational purpose whatsoever. In contradistinction, when Monty seemingly threw his units similarly into a meatgrinder at the Third Battle of El Alamein, the crucial difference was that Monty had a clearly defined strategy of wearing down an opponent who he knew had no reserves, in order to throw that opponent back from a defensive position which was at the limit of a thinly stretched supply line, a position which, once abandoned, could probably not be re-established at any point along the line of retreat (i.e., no Qattara Depression to anchor the southern flank).

            I think I already hear a counter-barrage . . .
            Many that live in darkness that must be shown the way. For it is the dawning of a new day.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Moriturus
              I think I already hear a counter-barrage . . .
              I suggested Monty but i can "buy" your very rational exposition

              So no counter-barrage from here...

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              • #22
                Nice analysis Moriturus.

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                • #23
                  Montgomery

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                  • #24
                    Montgomery
                    Mega Campaign Screaming Eagles and Das Reich Design Team Member
                    DAS REICH CAMPAIGN, and THE SPWaW ICON GUIDE AVAILABLE AT: The SP:WaW Depot
                    In difficult ground, press on. In encircled ground, devise strategems. In death ground, fight.

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                    • #25
                      Do Admirals (Naval Commanders) Qualify? Then Halsey

                      If this includes naval commanders, "Bull" Halsey is the overrated by far. Of course, Douglas MacArthur, himself an overrated, pompous, self-aggrandizing windbag, thought Halsey was great. Birds of a feather . . .
                      Many that live in darkness that must be shown the way. For it is the dawning of a new day.

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                      • #26
                        Great caution should be used when giving excessive credit to Russian characters like Zhukov. Their clumsy if massive artillery barages followed by countless hordes of infantry are hardly proof of tactical or stretegic skill. Ask any US Korea veteran about his opinion on hordes of people assaulting like idiots. Also, both Zhukov in his memoirs and the Soviet propaganda lied about his mistakes systematically because it was so important for his reputation to remain unblemished. For instance, the terribly screwed up Operation Mars was practically erased from Soviet history books. This was quite an operation to remove from history books: an all-out attempt to defeat German Army Group Center. This was eventually accomplished by Bagration in 1944 while Mars was discretely shoveled under the rug.
                        Last edited by MonsterZero; 21 Mar 04, 18:49.

                        "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
                        --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Don Maddox

                          If you could combine the brute toughness of the Russian, the operational and tactical prowess of the German, the resourcefulness of the American and the professionalism of the Brit--you'd have one hell of a soldier!
                          Yeah, they are called 'Australian Soldiers', locally known as 'Diggers'
                          Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

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                          • #28
                            for my part, i would say Rommel
                            i think many of his succes are due to the fact that the british ( at least the british command) was scared about the german advance, all of this was due to the legend following rommel's succes, i'm sure he was a really good general but i'm sure he was overrated by the allied
                            looking forward to the new version of toaw

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Don Maddox
                              If you could combine the brute toughness of the Russian, the operational and tactical prowess of the German, the resourcefulness of the American and the professionalism of the Brit--you'd have one hell of a soldier!
                              I've heard many times: use British infantry for defence, Finns for your flanks, Germans for some punch, and don't forget the US supply!
                              "You can't change the rules in the middle of the game."
                              "Hey, you just made that rule up."


                              Heil Dicke Bertha!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SkyVon
                                Every Russian General except Zukov.
                                I say Zukov was overrated (just look at the final offensive at the Sealow Hights, had so vastly overwhelming numbers and still managed to blew the offensive). Or have a look at his Mars offensive.
                                "The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose."

                                Henry Alfred Kissinger

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