Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

THE ORDER OF THE DEATH'S HEAD

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by lewinski View Post
    United States forces put 560 German soldiers up against a wall and machine gunned them all. They were so proud of this that they filmed it and took lots of photos. Can it be PROVED that the Waffen-SS did anything as bad as that? It can be proved that United States army executed these 560 German soldiers because the photos still exist, but the film has since disappeared.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau...tion_reprisals

    If this is the incident you're refering to, your numbers are grossly inflated. What is your source for the information you quote?

    I note this section in the article:
    In the U.S. military "Investigation of Alleged Mistreatment of German Guards at Dachau" conducted by Lt. Col. Joseph Whitaker, the account given by Howard Buechner (then a first lieutenant in the United States Army and medical officer with the 3rd Battalion of the 157th Infantry), to Whitaker on 5 May 1945 did not contradict the Sparks account. Buechner's sworn testimony was that around 16:00 he arrived in the yard where the German soldiers had been shot, and that he "saw 15 or 16 dead and wounded German soldiers lying along the wall". He noted that some of the wounded soldiers were still moving, but he did not examine any of them. He answered "Yes, sir" when asked if he was the surgeon of the 3rd Battalion, 157th Infantry, at that time, and did not know if any medical attention was called for the wounded.[18][19]

    According to Buechner's 1986 book, Dachau: The Hour of the Avenger: An Eyewitness Account,[20] U.S. forces killed 520 German soldiers, including 346 killed on the orders of 1st Lt. Jack Bushyhead, in an alleged mass execution in the coalyard several hours after the first hospital shooting. Buechner did not witness the alleged incident, and his sworn testimony was that he "saw 15 or 16 dead and wounded German soldiers lying along the wall." His sworn testimony in the official investigation report also did not include any mention of a second shooting.[18][19] David L. Israel disputed this account in his book The Day the Thunderbird Cried:
    Buechner's inaccuracies and arbitrary use of figures in citing the untrue story about the total liquidation of all SS troops found in Dachau was eagerly accepted by Revisionist organizations and exploited to meet their own distorted stories of Dachau.

    — David L. Israel[21]
    Jürgen Zarusky also concluded that Buechner's claims were incorrect
    Still not 560 as you claim and the source seems to have some issues.

    The bulk of your reply seems to consist of "in my opinion" or "I believe". This is the history section of the forum.

    Please be prepared to back up your claims with sources.

    It is how historical debate is conducted.

    Your beliefs and opinions don't hold a candle to having a proper source to back up your claims.

    And again this forum has rules on historical revisionism and Nazi apologism.

    Please remember this fact. It is taken very seriously by staff.


    Last edited by CarpeDiem; 04 Nov 19, 10:08.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by lewinski View Post
      Personally, I don't think the "important qualifier" makes any difference.
      It makes a huge difference and has already been answered by Michele

      Some of the "others" were folk at the Nuremberg trials. But they are dismissed as people trying to save their own ass.
      There may be more recent "others". I have never looked into it. I am not particularly interested in the subject.


      In terms of "the others" it took a Catholic priest from France, Father Patrick Desbois, who went on a mission starting in 2002 into the German occupied territories during the war, specifically from 22 June 1941-through the end of 1944, from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea, and painstakingly along with his assembled team (camera men, interpreters, ballistics experts, and drivers - both men and women), covered thousands upon thousands of square miles to find all of the Jewish Holocaust mass graves scattered throughout Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, and the Ukraine.

      These thousands of mass grave sights, some with a few hundred victims and some with 34,000 (Babi Yar), were the work of the SS Einsatzgruppen special paramilitary units that followed in the wake of the advancing German armies to cleanse the rear areas of Jews, gypsies, and other "enemies of the state". These Special Aktion units, in 4 groups designated by the first 4 letters of the alphabet, from north to south respectively A,B,C and D, numbering 3,000 men combined, murdered 1.3 - 1.5 million innocent men, women, children, and infants with bullets.

      Obviously 3,000 men is not enough to cover this vast area and complete their task without the help of thousands of others from Germany which included the Ordnungspolizei, the Waffen SS divisions, rear security Wehrmacht divisions, and thousands of non Jewish collaborators as well as forced requisitions also numbering well into the thousands.

      Father Besbois interviewed some 4,000 local villagers, both men and women, and cross referenced their depositions with Russian, German and American archives. This process took well over a decade and is, imho, the most complete and accurate description of how these Special Actions - murders were carried out. The men and women interviewed - all on video camera - varied in age from 10 years old to 30 years old at the time they witnessed these murders and were 70 to 90 years old when they gave their testimonies. The details are all in Father Debois' 2 books The Holocaust By Bullets and In Broad Daylight. Both books can be found on Amazon. I would also suggest you read the book Masters Of Death by Richard Rhodes which can be found easily as well.




      I have believed that the Waffen-SS were elite units equivalent to the US Marines for a long time now. I can't remember why I have this belief.
      Elite can have multiple definitions. All of the earlier fielded Waffen SS main divisions - 1st SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, 2nd SS Das Reich, 3rd SS Totenkopf, 5SS Viking were all very good combat divisions from the French campaign and up to 1944. The Viking Division was not in action until Operation Barbarossa. Viking was formed from Division Das Reich's Regiment Germania with 2 new regiments to fill out its ranks.

      Does Very good in combat equal elite? IMHO these divisions were considered elite because they were Hitlers own personal soldiers and the brainchild of Heinrich Himmler who chose them for their Nordic Germanic blood. (but this was not always the case. In fact it was far from it)
      And I didn't know that the Jews claimed the Waffen-SS were evil mass-murders. And I still don't believe that is the case.
      I suggest you read some books on the subject. There is a fairly new book simply titled the Waffen SS which covers all of the main units I posted above. Unlike the divisional history books written by members of these divisions this new book covers all of their campaigns and deployments in decent detail but does not ommit the atrocities and war crimes they committed along the way which the author covers chonologically along with the campaigns.

      This new book can be found here: https://www.amazon.com/Waffen-SS-Hit...s=books&sr=1-1


      United States forces put 560 German soldiers up against a wall and machine gunned them all.
      BS!!
      Last edited by Kurt Knispel; 04 Nov 19, 11:08.
      Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post

        It makes a huge difference and has already been answered by Michele



        In terms of "the others" it took a Catholic priest from France, Father Patrick Desbois, who went on a mission starting in 2002 into the German occupied territories during the war, specifically from 22 June 1941-through the end of 1944, from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea, and painstakingly along with his assembled team (camera men, interpreters, ballistics experts, and drivers - both men and women), covered thousands upon thousands of square miles to find all of the Jewish Holocaust mass graves scattered throughout Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, and the Ukraine.

        These thousands of mass grave sights, some with a few hundred victims and some with 34,000 (Babi Yar), were the work of the SS Einsatzgruppen special paramilitary units that followed in the wake of the advancing German armies to cleanse the rear areas of Jews, gypsies, and other "enemies of the state". These Special Aktion units, in 4 groups designated by the first 4 letters of the alphabet, from north to south respectively A,B,C and D, numbering 3,000 men combined, murdered 1.3 - 1.5 million innocent men, women, children, and infants with bullets.

        Obviously 3,000 men is not enough to cover this vast area and complete their task without the help of thousands of others from Germany which included the Ordnungspolizei, the Waffen SS divisions, rear security Wehrmacht divisions, and thousands of non Jewish collaborators as well as forced requisitions also numbering well into the thousands.

        Father Besbois interviewed some 4,000 local villagers, both men and women, and cross referenced their depositions with Russian, German and American archives. This process took well over a decade and is, imho, the most complete and accurate description of how these Special Actions - murders were carried out. The men and women interviewed - all on video camera - varied in age from 10 years old to 30 years old at the time they witnessed these murders and were 70 to 90 years old when they gave their testimonies. The details are all in Father Debois' 2 books The Holocaust By Bullets and In Broad Daylight. Both books can be found on Amazon. I would also suggest you read the book Masters Of Death by Richard Rhodes which can be found easily as well.






        Elite can have multiple definitions. All of the earlier fielded Waffen SS main divisions - 1st SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, 2nd SS Das Reich, 3rd SS Totenkopf, 5SS Viking were all very good combat divisions from the French campaign and up to 1944. The Viking Division was not in action until Operation Barbarossa. Viking was formed from Division Das Reich's Regiment Germania with 2 new regiments to fill out its ranks.

        Does Very good in combat equal elite? IMHO these divisions were considered elite because they were Hitlers own personal soldiers and the brainchild of Heinrich Himmler who chose them for their Nordic Germanic blood. (but this was not always the case. In fact it was far from it)


        I suggest you read some books on the subject. There is a fairly new book simply titled the Waffen SS which covers all of the main units I posted above. Unlike the divisional history books written by members of these divisions this new book covers all of their campaigns and deployments in decent detail but does not ommit the atrocities and war crimes they committed along the way which the author covers chonologically along with the campaigns.

        This new book can be found here: https://www.amazon.com/Waffen-SS-Hit...s=books&sr=1-1




        BS!!
        If you were a SS sniper your surrender to any of the allied forces would highly dubious. I've a P08 officer's presentation Luger with a worn grip with 41 stamped on the top of the barrel and virtually every surface stamped with a 54 on it. Piece of junk as far as I'm concerned even with all the chrome shiny bits. Just try to tear it down and reassemble it. It also jams and locks open when firing standard 9mm parabellem. Could be that the mag is. worn or damaged but I wouldn't want to use it in a gun fight. I'll stick with a Superhawk single action .41 Mag for a massive wound channel that is a 100% fatal center of mass. . If you have to shoot something you want it dead as soon as possible.
        Credo quia absurdum.


        Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

        Comment


        • #34
          [QUOTE=Bwaha;n5151746]
          If you have to shoot something you want it dead as soon as possible.
          Unfortunately This was far from the case as almost every witness interviewed told of the mounds of earth covering the dead wounded bodies would "move around" right after being covered over and sometimes this lasted 24 - 48 hours. This was the movement of some of the victims which were wounded or pretended death tryin to climb out of the massive tomb.

          Many of the non collaborating locals including the ones who were requisitioned to dig the grave pits and fill them back in risked their lives and came back to the liquidation sites at night to help some of the survivors get out from underneath the piles of bodies and the earth.

          The mounds of earth covering the dead would also "pulsate" for weeks from the gasses of the decomposing bodies.

          The infamous and murderous Friedrich Jeckeln, commander of one of the Einsatzgruppen, Turned the process into a "smooth and expedient operation". He even requisitioned local village woman to cook food for him and his men while they were murdering thousands. Alcohol was also supplied.


          From Wiki:

          Jeckeln developed a method of killing large numbers of people, over the course of the mass killings he had organised in the Ukraine, which included (amongst others) Babi Yar and the Kamianets-Podilskyi Massacre. First applied in the Rumbula massacre on 30 November and 8 December 1941, the method (which became known as the "Jeckeln System") involved dividing staff into separate groups, each of which specialised in a separate part of the process:
          1. The Security Service (SD) men rousted the people out of their houses in the Riga ghetto.
          2. The people to be murdered (typically Jews) were organised into columns of 500-1,000 people; and driven to the killing grounds about 10 kilometres to the south.
          3. The Order Police (Orpo) led the columns to the killing grounds.
          4. 3 pits where the killing would be done simultaneously had been dug in advance.
          5. The victims were stripped of their clothing and valuables.
          6. The victims were run through a double cordon of guards on the way to the killing pits.
          7. The killers forced the victims to lie face down on the trench floor, or more often, on the bodies of the people who had just been shot.
          8. In order to save on the cost of bullets, each person was shot once in the back of the head with a Russian submachine gun. The shooters either walked among the dead in the trench, killing them from a range of 2 metres, or stood at the lip of the excavation and shot the prone victims below them. Anyone not killed outright was simply buried alive when the pit was covered up.

          This system was referred to as "sardine packing" (Sardinenpackung).
          Full Wiki (which in the case of Jeckeln is a good source - I have read about Jeckeln in quite a few books so I know) is here:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Jeckeln





          Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
            Much stuff,..
            That's going to take some reading.

            ---------------------------

            Prokhorovka: The world's greatest tank battle. It never happened!
            Why did HITLER not take Gibraltar and turn the Mediterranean into a "German lake".
            The Nazis produced 12,000 tons of NERVE GAS. Why did they not use it?

            Comment


            • #36
              [QUOTE]
              Originally posted by lewinski View Post
              That's going to take some reading.
              Reading is the best way.

              An interesting fact pertaining to the various organizations under Himmler's SS and the Nazi Party members. These were two separate entities and for the most part, throughout the existence of the Third Reich, members of the SS and Party did not necessarily agree on everything and were, for the most part, divided on what the multitude of agencies (its a very long list) tasks were and who should be in charge of these myriad organizations.

              Heinrich Himmler was considered a social deviant and a pedantic sociopath by most of the most higher ranking Wehrmacht officers and Nazi Party leaders and controllers. Dr. Josef Goebbels, for example, never got along with Heinrich Himmler. Hitler had the last word in all of these affairs but in all but the most important decisions would let his senior minions fight it out on there own. He played one against the other. Most historians believe Hitler did this so that no single organ of his Reich could become much more powerful then another.

              The main players in this power struggle were Hermann Goring, Rudolf Hess, Martin Bormann, Reinhard Heydrich, Heinrich Himmler, and Josef Goebbels although there were literally hundreds more, underneath these senior Nazi officials, going at each other continuously before and after Hitler and his Nazi Party came to power and right up until the end of the Third Reich.

              From The Order Of The Deaths Head:
              The hallmark of the Nazi regime was "absence of system" (Masaryk's description of the Stalin regime); the weight and power was continuously shifting among the paladins; communication and coordination between lower level leaders was barred: the rivalries among the Nazi potentates were artificially kept alive. Hannah Arendt says: "the will of the Fuhrer can be embodied everywhere and at all times and he himself is not tied to any hierarchy, not even the one he might have established himself". Refusal to permit devolution of authority to the lower levels was a method of guaranteeing the personal dominance of the Fuhrer - for dynamism was then his prerogative alone. Though outwardly resembling a pyramid of power, the hierarchy of party functionaries in fact possessed no inherit authority; in the words of Hannah Arendt, the expert on totalitarianism, an action was legitimized "not because it was done in execution of orders issuing from this or that authority but because it was done in fulfilment of the will of the leadership.








              Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

              Comment


              • #37
                I came across this American massacre of 560 German soldiers on the internet a couple of years back and found lots of stuff about it.

                Now there is almost nothing.

                Where did it all go?

                Prokhorovka: The world's greatest tank battle. It never happened!
                Why did HITLER not take Gibraltar and turn the Mediterranean into a "German lake".
                The Nazis produced 12,000 tons of NERVE GAS. Why did they not use it?

                Comment


                • #39
                  Originally posted by lewinski View Post
                  I came across this American massacre of 560 German soldiers on the internet a couple of years back and found lots of stuff about it.

                  Now there is almost nothing.

                  Where did it all go?
                  Presumably down the drain where revisionist, Nazi-apologist stuff end, sooner or later.

                  560 is the number that reportedly the camp goons numbered. So claims that that was the death toll amount to claiming that the entire garrison was killed.

                  If such garbage disappeared, good riddance. And I'd recommend you not to frequent that kind of sites, it's very easy for you to be entirely fooled.

                  Michele

                  Comment


                  • #40
                    Wikipedia is a very biased source.

                    Seems OK for some topics, especially those that are scientific.

                    But as regards History, it is awful.


                    Comment


                    • #41
                      There is a web page written by a guy who seems quite knowledgeable:

                      It is called: SS soldiers have an undeserved bad reputation.

                      Here are a few quotes from the page:

                      "In American terms, the Waffen-SS was comparable to the US Marines"

                      "In American terms, the Waffen-SS was comparable to the US Marines, but unlike the Marines, the Waffen-SS had volunteer divisions from many other countries. In 1944, there were 910,000 soldiers fighting on the side of Germany in the Waffen-SS, but less than half of these SS men had been born in Germany; there were 310,000 ethnic Germans from other countries such as Rumania, Yugoslavia and Hungary who were fighting with the Waffen-SS."

                      "At the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal, SS Lt. General Ernst Kaltenbrunner testified that there were 13 Stammlager (main concentration camps) in the Nazi camp system. One of these camps was Matzgau, located near Danzig; it was a camp where SS guards were imprisoned for offenses such as physical mistreatment of concentration camp prisoners, embezzlement, or theft. Yet tour guides at Dachau routinely tell visitors that the guards could do anything they wanted to with regard to abusing or killing the prisoners."

                      https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...ad-reputation/

                      I found this page while searching for information on the American massacre of five to six hundred Waffen-SS soldiers.

                      ---------------------------

                      Prokhorovka: The world's greatest tank battle. It never happened!
                      Why did HITLER not take Gibraltar and turn the Mediterranean into a "German lake".
                      The Nazis produced 12,000 tons of NERVE GAS. Why did they not use it?


                      Last edited by lewinski; 16 Nov 19, 08:09.

                      Comment


                      • #42
                        Originally posted by lewinski View Post
                        There is a web page written by a guy who seems quite knowledgeable:

                        It is called: SS soldiers have an undeserved bad reputation.

                        Here are a few quotes from the page:

                        "In American terms, the Waffen-SS was comparable to the US Marines"

                        "In American terms, the Waffen-SS was comparable to the US Marines, but unlike the Marines, the Waffen-SS had volunteer divisions from many other countries. In 1944, there were 910,000 soldiers fighting on the side of Germany in the Waffen-SS, but less than half of these SS men had been born in Germany; there were 310,000 ethnic Germans from other countries such as Rumania, Yugoslavia and Hungary who were fighting with the Waffen-SS."

                        "At the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal, SS Lt. General Ernst Kaltenbrunner testified that there were 13 Stammlager (main concentration camps) in the Nazi camp system. One of these camps was Matzgau, located near Danzig; it was a camp where SS guards were imprisoned for offenses such as physical mistreatment of concentration camp prisoners, embezzlement, or theft. Yet tour guides at Dachau routinely tell visitors that the guards could do anything they wanted to with regard to abusing or killing the prisoners."

                        https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2...ad-reputation/

                        I found this page while searching for information on the American massacre of five to six hundred Waffen-SS soldiers.

                        ---------------------------

                        Prokhorovka: The world's greatest tank battle. It never happened!
                        Why did HITLER not take Gibraltar and turn the Mediterranean into a "German lake".
                        The Nazis produced 12,000 tons of NERVE GAS. Why did they not use it?

                        Wikipedia is awful and biased but this is the source and evidence you provide as acceptable? Poorly and improperly sourced claims from a website that also contains such great posts as one in which he states that it’s wrong for an African American to marry British royalty? That’s just some of the excellent work your “quite knowledgeable” writer posts. As a source for historical information it is next to worthless. As an example of historical revisionism, Nazi apologism and the attempt to normalize racist views, it checks all the boxes.

                        This does zero to support the claim made and coupled with other posts you’ve made raises serious questions about your motivations.

                        Please do a better job of sourcing in the future.
                        Last edited by CarpeDiem; 16 Nov 19, 14:10.

                        Comment


                        • #43
                          An off topic post by lewinski having nothing to do with WW2 and adding nothing to the discussion was removed.
                          Please stick to the topic at hand and take discussions on current events to the proper forum
                          thank you
                          ACG Staff

                          Comment

                          Latest Topics

                          Collapse

                          Working...
                          X