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  • THE ORDER OF THE DEATH'S HEAD

    I am in the process of re - reading this book to "freshen up" on a few things.

    Firstly, anyone who is interested in the subject of the SS from its origins in the mid 20's through 1945 and the end of the Third Reich, this book is the best starting point. Although written in the late 60's, its contents are not dated and the subject is given a thorough treatment. The book is titled The Order of the Death's Head and the author is Heinz Hohne.

    Hohne's work, in the latest re -issue, contains 583 pages of text (the fonts are small), 55 pages of notes, a 10 page glossary page of German to English terminology (ie: Allgameine SS = The general body of the SS consisting of part time, full time, and inactive or honorary members, as distinct from the Waffen SS), a table of SS ranks (ie; SS Oberstgruppenfuhrer = General), 7 pages of maps and tables, 28 pages of bibliography, 28 pages of index.

    I first read this book about 12 years ago and I have to say that, half way through it again, I have found many eye opening revelations in which I will post when I have the time.
    Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

  • #2
    Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
    Firstly, anyone who is interested in the subject of the SS from its origins in the mid 20's through 1945 and the end of the Third Reich, this book is the best starting point. Although written in the late 60's, its contents are not dated and the subject is given a thorough treatment. The book is titled The Order of the Death's Head and the author is Heinz Hohne.
    The Totenkopf division (Death's Head) was involved in the battle of Kursk, of which the (fake) battle of Prokhorovka was supposedly a part.

    Totenkopf was not SS; even though it was called SS-Totenkopf.

    Prokhorovka: The world's greatest tank battle. It never happened!

    Quotes from the book: The Order of the Death's Head by Heinz Hohne (1969).

    "The Waffen-SS had been conceived as the Party's Brigade of Guards...."

    and at its inception was (according to Hohne) a group of ideological fanatics.

    However, (again according to Hohne) it changed its colors and became a normal group of soldiers.

    "The daily grind of World War II turned the Reichsfuhrer's legionaries (the supposed predecessor of the Waffen-SS) into practically normal soldiers, almost indistinguishable from those of the Wehrmacht.... "

    Colonel-General Paul Hausser, and General Felix Steiner, among many others, claimed that the Waffen-SS had never been anything but a purely military force.

    "The Waffen-SS soldiers found themselves (completely unjustly) stripped of their military character and equated with the RSHA's murder commandos and the concentration-camp torturers."

    "The ex-Wehrmacht officers could have corrected this distorted picture of the Waffen-SS but the majority preferred to hold their tongues. Many were apparently unable to remember that they had once been glad to have the elite Waffen-SS Divisions fighting alongside them."

    It is worth emphasizing that:

    The Waffen-SS soldiers were practically normal soldiers, almost indistinguishable from those of the Wehrmacht....

    It matters little what the Waffen-SS started as (and there is some controversy regarding this). It only matters what the Waffen-SS actually was, and that is a group of "practically normal soldiers, almost indistinguishable from those of the Wehrmacht."
    Last edited by lewinski; 02 Nov 19, 07:18.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by lewinski View Post


      Totenkopf was not SS; even though it was called SS-Totenkopf.
      I'd be interested to hear the reasoning and the evidence that supports this claim.

      Charles Sydnor, Heinz Hohne, Mark Yerger and many other historians place them in the SS.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post

        I'd be interested to hear the reasoning and the evidence that supports this claim.

        Charles Sydnor, Heinz Hohne, Mark Yerger and many other historians place them in the SS.
        Thanks CD. I saw his post earlier but being that he thinks nothing happened at Prokhoravka and what you have correctly pointed out I saw no reason to respond (it would be a lengthy respond and I don't have the time).
        Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post

          Thanks CD. I saw his post earlier but being that he thinks nothing happened at Prokhoravka and what you have correctly pointed out I saw no reason to respond (it would be a lengthy respond and I don't have the time).
          While I totally believe a large tank battle happened at Prokhoravka, the devil is in the detail, and therefore I would not totally dismiss his claims immediately. His use of geography and logistics is certainly an indication of real insight, if probably wrong.
          How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
          Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

          Comment


          • #6
            Is there any good reason why you have removed the

            "Prokhorovka: The world's greatest tank battle. It never happened!"

            thread from the page listing world war two articles, i.e.:

            https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...s/world-war-ii


            Prokhorovka: The world's greatest tank battle. It never happened!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by lewinski View Post
              Is there any good reason why you have removed the

              "Prokhorovka: The world's greatest tank battle. It never happened!"

              thread from the page listing world war two articles, i.e.:

              https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...s/world-war-ii


              Prokhorovka: The world's greatest tank battle. It never happened!
              Popular demand, our dear new friend, is generally considered sufficient
              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by lewinski View Post
                Is there any good reason why you have removed the

                "Prokhorovka: The world's greatest tank battle. It never happened!"

                thread from the page listing world war two articles, i.e.:

                https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...s/world-war-ii


                Prokhorovka: The world's greatest tank battle. It never happened!
                As per forum rules, if you have a question or concern about staff actions, please use the PM function to contact the staff. Staff actions are not open for discussion in the open forum.
                As you are a new member , I will make an exception this time.

                The thread in question was moved to the battles/campaigns section of the World War Two section as this is the correct location for the thread. As it was a new thread it was allowed to remain in the open part of the WW2 forum for a short period of time. It has now been moved to its proper location.

                If you have any further questions please feel free to ask them via PM to myself or another member of the staff.

                Thank you
                ACG Staff

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post

                  As per forum rules, if you have a question or concern about staff actions, please use the PM function to contact the staff. Staff actions are not open for discussion in the open forum.
                  As you are a new member , I will make an exception this time.

                  The thread in question was moved to the battles/campaigns section of the World War Two section as this is the correct location for the thread. As it was a new thread it was allowed to remain in the open part of the WW2 forum for a short period of time. It has now been moved to its proper location.

                  If you have any further questions please feel free to ask them via PM to myself or another member of the staff.

                  Thank you
                  ACG Staff
                  And here I was thinking that you were just hiding the article away.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by lewinski View Post

                    And here I was thinking that you were just hiding the article away.
                    Don't push it...
                    Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      SS Totenkopf was heavily involved at the Kursk battle. They were given orders to link up with the LSSAH northwest of Prokhoravka but they were cut off by heavy Soviet troops with dug in defensive positions. Details I can give but is this guy for real?
                      Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I meant for this thread was to discuss the SS as a whole organization - Waffen SS, SD, Gestapo, Eiensatzgruppen, ect. and the heinous atrocities they committed as well as the omitted and complacent Wehrmacht apologist take on the subject in which there are many including some so called historian authors (all bullshit). All posts are welcome but jeezus what a first and ignorant reply this thread had....SMH
                        Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post
                          I'd be interested to hear the reasoning and the evidence that supports this claim.
                          Totenkopfverbände (camp guard units) were separate from early military SS, also a part of SS in general. That is what he means, probably. However, for all intends and purposes Totenkopf division was was a part of Waffen-SS

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
                            Totenkopfverbände (camp guard units) were separate from early military SS, also a part of SS in general. That is what he means, probably. However, for all intends and purposes Totenkopf division was was a part of Waffen-SS
                            Yes, the guard units were not, initially, part of the Waffen-SS. But, of course (and this is the first time I read someone questioning this) the 3. Waffen-SS Division, named Totenkopf, was raised from those Totenkopf concentration-camp guard Standarten (units).
                            As the number very evidently says, the initial time of existence of the Waffen-SS during which the Waffen-SS did not include the Totenkopf division was pretty pretty short: it's the time during only the 1. and 2. Divisions were the Waffen-SS.
                            Michele

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
                              I meant for this thread was to discuss the SS as a whole organization - Waffen SS,... and (the) complacent Wehrmacht apologist take on the subject (of) which there are many including some so called historian authors.... All posts are welcome but jeezus what a first and ignorant reply this thread had...
                              Quotes from the book: The Order of the Death's Head by Heinz Hohne (1969).

                              "The Waffen-SS had been conceived as the Party's Brigade of Guards...."

                              and at its inception was (according to Hohne) a group of ideological fanatics.

                              However, (again according to Hohne) it changed its colors and became a normal group of soldiers.

                              "The daily grind of World War II turned the Reichsfuhrer's legionaries (the supposed predecessor of the Waffen-SS) into practically normal soldiers, almost indistinguishable from those of the Wehrmacht.... "

                              Colonel-General Paul Hausser, and General Felix Steiner, among many others, claimed that the Waffen-SS had never been anything but a purely military force.

                              "The Waffen-SS soldiers found themselves (completely unjustly) stripped of their military character and equated with the RSHA's murder commandos and the concentration-camp torturers."

                              "The ex-Wehrmacht officers could have corrected this distorted picture of the Waffen-SS but the majority preferred to hold their tongues. Many were apparently unable to remember that they had once been glad to have the elite Waffen-SS Divisions fighting alongside them."

                              It is worth emphasizing that:

                              The Waffen-SS soldiers were practically normal soldiers, almost indistinguishable from those of the Wehrmacht....

                              It matters little what the Waffen-SS started as (and there is some controversy regarding this). It only matters what the Waffen-SS actually was, and that is a group of "practically normal soldiers, almost indistinguishable from those of the Wehrmacht."

                              Comment

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