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The Waffen SS….. Soldiers like other soldiers?

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  • Thanks guys
    Much appreciated!

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    • More on Leon Degrelle's Wallonian SS Volunteers:

      Office cadet Jaques Leroy, now back with his comrades after a convalescent period for losing his right arm and vision in his right eye during the battle and breakout in the Cherkassy pocket took part in the fierce fighting near the Dabie bridgehead in the city of Szczecin Poland. The city is located on the Oder River, south of the Szczecin Lagoon and the bay of Pomerania on the Baltic Sea.

      Jaque Leroy and his comrades in the Wallonian SS Volunteers were in their trenches at a defensive line hastily dug the previous night.

      From the book Last Blood on Pomerania:


      Just as Leroy left his cover, he saw tanks on his right out of the corner of his eye. They were advancing in four rows, perpendicularly to the company’s command post. He started to count. There were … nineteen of them! And they were Soviet, no doubt. What could a miserable cripple9 do, alone on that road, barely several dozen meters from those steel monstrosities? Luckily for him, the tanks had no infantry support. Leroy saw in the twilight the gun turret of the closest tank slowly turn towards him. He didn’t even have time to fall to the ground when the shot came. Blinding flash. Sound of explosion. The shell luckily flew above his head. Leroy jumped to the railway embankment to take cover. The enemy tank’s crew wasn’t keen on wasting their ammo on a single man. The platoon commander ran towards his men. An empty sleeve slipped from his belt and fluttered behind him. ‘Russian tanks!’ Leroy yelled, when he got to his men. ‘Dig in, deep as you can! How can we stop them, lieutenant? I was promised panzerfausts. They’ll send some from the rear. True enough, a horse-cart delivered the weapons which, for some inexplicable reason, were just barrels missing fuses which were supposed to be delivered from somewhere else but apparently forgotten. Were the Burgundians to attack tanks empty-handed? Captain Derriks was just about to move the 1st and 2nd Companies’ main posts which had been too fore-reached when the battle broke out with incredible fury. Groups of Russians were swarming out of the woods. They attacked screaming savagely.

      The Walloons gave as good as they got. For now they had enough ammo to maintain hellish fire. The enemy was forced back, but they were supported by some twenty T-34 tanks, which were closing in on the defence positions of Kampfgruppe ‘Derriks’. Russian armoured cars appeared on the wide plain, west from the road from Altdamm and they were passing by the company’s forward positions, commanded by Andre Regibeau. Hidden in their foxholes, the Burgundians were unable to use their panzerfausts and they had to let them go through.
      Leroy and his men were given panzerfausts that did not work!

      Jaques Leroy had a chance to go home to Belgium, without any punishment, just days before this. And blind in one eye and missing an arm, Leroy chose to stay and fight.

      More from Last Blood on Pomerania:


      Despite a fiery and passionate speech of the Walloons’ formal and spiritual leader, Leon Degrelle, most of the survivors were spent and aware that they had done everything they could, and their morale was gone. The Legion’s volunteers realized that further involvement and sacrifice might be completely useless. In his later recollection, Degrelle explains his decisions on the matter:
      I was given a week to reorganize my crippled troops with the reinforcements, which had arrived at the Stettin railway station that morning. I wanted to keep only the toughest. I gathered them all, thanked them for their amazing service. In no uncertain terms I told them of the situation and of the harsh battles still ahead. Everybody may choose if they want to get back into the fray or hang back at the rear. Everybody had enlisted in the Legion voluntarily. No hope is left: I will accept your blood only if it is shed willingly. Nobody will be able to say that there was even one Walloon, who had fallen in our last fight against his will. Eighty men chose not to return to the fight. I treated them with as much kindness as before. After all, I wasn’t a slave overlord. Besides, most of these boys were at the end of their ropes. I sent them thirty kilometers to the north-west of Oder. I ordered that they were to be taken care of and well fed.
      Jaques Leroy below you can clearly see the empty sleeve where his right arm should be. Next photo Leroy still has patch over right eye. Third photo Leroy, in the middle, who survived the war, at a reunion with his battle hardened comrades.




      More on Jaques Leroy from Last Blood on Pomerania:


      SS-Untersturmführer Jacques Leroy’s platoon not only withstood heavy assault from Soviet infantry but also managed to destroy several T-34s and stop the enemy in their sector, while still maintaining their positions for 72 hours. For that feat, SS-Untersturmführer Leroy was later nominated for the Knight’s Cross Iron Cross (Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes).11 Leon Degrelle, in that particular tone of his, describes the tragedy of the fighting and the Leroy brothers’ heroism: The casualties were terrible: in three days our sector lost sixty percent of its defenders, who had been either killed or wounded. Dug in in their foxholes, only their heads or arms sticking out, they got hit by the shrapnel from shells or grenades mostly in the face. They would run then to my tiny command post with terrifying bloody holes where their jaws used to be. Often their tongues would still stick out, pink and trembling, unnaturally long. Twenty-five or thirty wounded would run to me at a time. Some of them, who were hit while on the run, had metal shrapnel in their groins, they would convulse horribly, screaming in agony. But I had to command, had to keep an eye on everything, despite the stench of curdling blood and excrements that floated over wet trenches.

      We had this young officer in the ‘Derriks’, very thin and pale, Lieutenant Leroy from Binche, who had enlisted when he was sixteen. A year earlier, during the fighting in Cherkassy, he lost his right arm and eye. But he wanted to go back to the anti-Soviet front so badly. He was a communications officer. The invalid’s presence among the soldiers was touching. Leroy’s brother was a platoon leader. He got killed on the embankment in Finkenwalde three days before the end of the Oder battle. Our young cripple didn’t break under the pain of his loss, but immediately asked to take his brother’s place. I agreed. It as an incredible and amazing sight: a cripple with a mangled torso fiercely fighting hand-to-hand for three days and three nights, firing his machine pistol, which he operated quite handily with his left arm.
      What drives men like Jaques Leroy to risk their lives day after day for a lost cause is beyond me and I could start another thread to discuss this but I am no Psychiatrist which is probably the only way one could draw conclusions. They would have had to find hundreds of men like Leroy who survived the war and do a thorough psychological profile on them preferably as soon as possible after the end of the war.



































      Last edited by Kurt Knispel; 13 Jan 19, 16:47.
      Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

      Comment


      • ^
        I believe it is as it is discussed in the "Comradeship and Combat power" thread- the call to arms of the German military / WSS was essentially a social contract for a "heroes' journey" for men. The culture of the german army/WSS was something that encouraged that, with the award system, rituals, and the combat doctrine.

        For the enlisted and volunteers, particularly the very young it was not a logical thing or fully an ideological thing (the ideology was the excuse) but at a a core, a spiritual thing and very quickly the essence of meaning became fighting for the sake of fighting and fighting for the sake of "comradeship". This meaning was in excess of what they experienced in their civilian lives up to this point and far in excess of any political indoctrination or ideals.

        These male "feelings" are typically absorbed by sports, watching tv shows, music, videogames, reading, gambling, and other recreational & creative activities in peacetime.


        Sajer (penname) in the "Forgotten Soldier" had an interesting comment about how fighting in a war replaced romance for the youth. Too young to love but old enough to die.

        In this respect, the motives were timeless and reflected the motivations of men at war throughout history. Mark Yerger dedicated the remainder of his life to publishing all these SS CV's. IIRC in the intro of "Honoring those that led" he writes how he is personally impressed on how these soldiers were able to endure tramas and dramas that were far in excess to those of American experience. (spending intense years, with little break except from recovering from injuries at the front). He is also impressed with how young these men were in general (WSS officers nearly all in their 20s and 30s, with enlisted being teenagers or above. SS division and corps commanders being fairly young men in their 30s ) and the high level of responsibilities they held throughout their careers. This may be why he put so much energy into these projects, seeking out veterans, etc. and becoming an expert in the subject; despite the interest in the human spirit what I've seen from his works are not romanticized at all and factual.

        His books that compile all Waffen SS german cross in gold winners and above is IMHO his way to present an "ode to heroism". I do not believe that he is sympathetic or even interested in nazi ideology from the way he writes about the concentration camp and war crimes war of the Totenkopf- his fascination was in heroism and the furthest extent of human endurance. He most likely considered the German award system a sound measure of this traits.
        Last edited by Cult Icon; 14 Jan 19, 07:47.
        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
          I believe it is as it is discussed in the "Comradeship and Combat power" thread- the call to arms of the German military / WSS was essentially a social contract for a "heroes' journey" for men. The culture of the german army/WSS was something that encouraged that, with the award system, rituals, and the combat doctrine.
          A solid example of the above would be Joachim Peiper. JP was Himmler's adjutant. Quite the cushy job. Yet he wanted to be sent to the front and into combat with his comrades.

          For the enlisted and volunteers, particularly the very young it was not a logical thing or fully an ideological thing (the ideology was the excuse) but at a a core, a spiritual thing and very quickly the essence of meaning became fighting for the sake of fighting and fighting for the sake of "comradeship". This meaning was in excess of what they experienced in their civilian lives up to this point and far in excess of any political indoctrination or ideals.
          The Belgium volunteers are a prime example of the above. Leon Degrelle was most assuredly a Socialist at heart but in reading the accounts I have of the Burgundian's in the various Walloon units I have the majority of them were not. And this goes for the officers as well. They had a Catholic Priest in their ranks by the name of Father Gerard Stockman. This went against Himmler beliefs but he permitted it for he knew the Walloons were ardent Catholics. The only other SS division with a Catholic Priest in its ranks was the 33.SS Grenadier Division Charlemagne. Again Himmler allowed this because its members were also ardent Catholics.

          These male "feelings" are typically absorbed by sports, watching tv shows, music, videogames, reading, gambling, and other recreational & creative activities in peacetime.
          Especially football … and you left out drinking


          Sajer (penname) in the "Forgotten Soldier" had an interesting comment about how fighting in a war replaced romance for the youth. Too young to love but old enough to die.
          Replace romance with alcohol here in the U.S.A. where, at age 18, you can join the Army and get sent to the Middle East to die but forbidden to consume alcohol until 21

          In this respect, the motives were timeless and reflected the motivations of men at war throughout history. Mark Yerger dedicated the remainder of his life to publishing all these SS CV's. IIRC in the intro of "Honoring those that led" he writes how he is personally impressed on how these soldiers were able to endure tramas and dramas that were far in excess to those of American experience. (spending intense years, with little break except from recovering from injuries at the front). He is also impressed with how young these men were in general (WSS officers nearly all in their 20s and 30s, with enlisted being teenagers or above. SS division and corps commanders being fairly young men in their 30s ) and the high level of responsibilities they held throughout their careers. This may be why he put so much energy into these projects, seeking out veterans, etc. and becoming an expert in the subject; despite the interest in the human spirit what I've seen from his works are not romanticized at all and factual.
          It is plain by all of Yerger's books that this was his passion. He was still writing up to the last week of his life while stricken with cancer. And he was a cat lover.

          His books that compile all Waffen SS german cross in gold winners and above is IMHO his way to present an "ode to heroism". I do not believe that he is sympathetic or even interested in nazi ideology from the way he writes about the concentration camp and war crimes war of the Totenkopf- his fascination was in heroism and the furthest extent of human endurance. He most likely considered the German award system a sound measure of this traits.
          I would have liked to meet Mark. He was definitely one of a kind.
          Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
            What drives men like Jaques Leroy to risk their lives day after day for a lost cause is beyond me and I could start another thread to discuss this but I am no Psychiatrist which is probably the only way one could draw conclusions.
            In case of the foreign volunteers in the Waffen SS, you should not underestimate the effect of being ostracized in their homeland, particularily in the latter part of the war. Studies of Danish Waffen SS volunteers show that they were - from 1942 onwards - well aware that they were seen as traitors by the majority of the population and as war progressed, they realized that they would likely be prosecuted and punished, when going back after the war. In other words, their country, their community, their social groups and often also part of their families had turned against them, leaving them with their military organisation as their only "home". On top of that, the knowledged shared by many Germans, who had been involved in the atrocities of 3. Reich, that what you had done, been involved in or supported would be frowned upon by the victors and at least suppresed - perhaps condemned - by society in general after the war.

            Staying with your social group and fight to the end in the vain hope that something positive would come of it, seems like a reasonable reaction in those circumstances. And when fighting was no longer possible - then trying to dive under, become inconspicous and vanish - or choose suicide.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by cbo View Post

              In case of the foreign volunteers in the Waffen SS, you should not underestimate the effect of being ostracized in their homeland, particularily in the latter part of the war. Studies of Danish Waffen SS volunteers show that they were - from 1942 onwards - well aware that they were seen as traitors by the majority of the population and as war progressed, they realized that they would likely be prosecuted and punished, when going back after the war. In other words, their country, their community, their social groups and often also part of their families had turned against them, leaving them with their military organisation as their only "home". On top of that, the knowledged shared by many Germans, who had been involved in the atrocities of 3. Reich, that what you had done, been involved in or supported would be frowned upon by the victors and at least suppresed - perhaps condemned - by society in general after the war.

              Staying with your social group and fight to the end in the vain hope that something positive would come of it, seems like a reasonable reaction in those circumstances. And when fighting was no longer possible - then trying to dive under, become inconspicous and vanish - or choose suicide.
              They were ostracized. After the war, the majority of them had harsh prison sentences. Degrelle managed to get to Spain via Norway. But judging from what I have read, which is pretty extensive, the rank and file soldiers in the Walloon legions and later SS Wallonian were not concerned with this. Degrelle and other officers were still able to find ready and willing replacements up until February of 1945.
              Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post

                They were ostracized. After the war, the majority of them had harsh prison sentences. Degrelle managed to get to Spain via Norway. But judging from what I have read, which is pretty extensive, the rank and file soldiers in the Walloon legions and later SS Wallonian were not concerned with this. Degrelle and other officers were still able to find ready and willing replacements up until February of 1945.
                Judging from the actual research into the history of the Danish Waffen-SS volunteers by by actual historians - rather than what you can read in Waffen-SS veterans memoirs - Danish volunteers were very much aware of this from quite early on. During the Freikorps Dänemark leave in Denmark in 1942, the volunteers had felt the dislike very clearly and they continued to recieve the cold shoulder in public, outside Nationalsocialist circles. Recruitment to Waffen-SS in Denmark came primarily from the German minority in Denmark and Nationalsocialist sympathizers. It peaked in 1941, then went up and down towards the end of 1943 after which it fell to very low numbers.

                I would not be surprised if you could still find the odd replacement right into 1945, but that would likely be people from a Nationalsocialist background, perhaps those who had already felt the lack of sympathy at home - perhaps because they had been involved in collaboration of varous sorts.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by cbo View Post

                  Judging from the actual research into the history of the Danish Waffen-SS volunteers by by actual historians - rather than what you can read in Waffen-SS veterans memoirs - Danish volunteers were very much aware of this from quite early on. During the Freikorps Dänemark leave in Denmark in 1942, the volunteers had felt the dislike very clearly and they continued to recieve the cold shoulder in public, outside Nationalsocialist circles. Recruitment to Waffen-SS in Denmark came primarily from the German minority in Denmark and Nationalsocialist sympathizers. It peaked in 1941, then went up and down towards the end of 1943 after which it fell to very low numbers.

                  I would not be surprised if you could still find the odd replacement right into 1945, but that would likely be people from a Nationalsocialist background, perhaps those who had already felt the lack of sympathy at home - perhaps because they had been involved in collaboration of varous sorts.
                  National socialism was the common thread shared by all WSS units. Along with a hatred of Marxism/Communism, in which much of the population of northwest Europe, at the time, shared. The men who stepped forward and put their lives on the line to combat what they perceived as a threat to their homelands were ostracized and condemned after the war as "Nazi Collaborators."

                  These WSS soldiers, were of course, a minute percentage of the population of their countries. The rest of the population, now under the rule of Germany, were pre-occupied with the hatred of the immediate danger which was their new rulers, the Nazi's, and looked toward an eventual liberation while a small percentage of the overall population of these occupied territories became partisans to aide the Allies in their eventual triumph over the Nazis.

                  The Nazis were a totalitarian regime and committed unspeakable crimes yet, the alternate choice would have been Stalin and his regime which did have plans to invade northwest Europe eventually but Hitler beat Stalin to the punch. Things played out well for Stalin as he had very powerful allies in Great Britain and the United States. Hitler was defeated, Germany was destroyed, and Stalin received many wonderful concessions which were already being ironed out at the various meetings of the Allied leaders and Stalin.

                  The declaration went on to reaffirm the goal that Korea shall become free and independent. (Cairo) upon conclusion of the first Cairo Conference, Churchill and Roosevelt flew to Iran for the Tehran Conference with Soviet leader Joseph Stalin. Though the military discussions were at the forefront of the meeting, the Tehran Conference saw more political discussion than had occurred in any of the previous meeting between the Allies. Stalin made known his desire to retain the lands obtained in his pacts with Germany and to gain the Baltic coast of East Prussia.

                  Churchill and Roosevelt were non-committal on this point but agreed with Stalin on the settlement of Poland. They did agree on Iran, which Allied forces were partly occupying, and published a declaration guaranteeing its postwar independence and territorial integrity. (Kananga) In February of 1945, Churchill, FORD, and Stalin met at Yalta, Crimea, in the USSR. They reiterated the policy of demanding Germany’s unconditional surrender, and made preliminary plans for dividing Germany into American, British, French, and Soviet zones Of occupation.

                  Many of the important decisions made here remained secret until the end of World War II for various litany or political reasons. The USSR secretly agreed to enter the war against Japan within three months of Germany’s surrender and was promised S Sailing, the Krill Islands, and an occupation zone in Korea. There were also other secret agreements about the disposal of Japan’s holdings, and the status of Central Europe. (Yalta) After the outbreak of the cold war, a lot of criticism was leveled at the participants of the Yalta Conference for delivering Eastern Europe to Communist domination.
                  full article here: https://anyassignment.com/history/th...ignment-49787/

                  Do you think Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Poland were thrilled with the above?

                  The fate of Germany and many other European nations were what motivated the soldiers in the WSS. To the victor goes the spoils.

                  Their are quite a few books about the fate of Germany after the war. I read this one and found it to be a straightforward and honest assessment without bias.
                  https://www.amazon.com/Hellstorm-Dea...f+nazi+germany

                  The ensuing Cold War which lasted until 1991 in another story......
                  Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
                    The Nazis were a totalitarian regime and committed unspeakable crimes yet, the alternate choice would have been Stalin and his regime which did have plans to invade northwest Europe eventually but Hitler beat Stalin to the punch. Things played out well for Stalin as he had very powerful allies in Great Britain and the United States. .



                    full article here: https://anyassignment.com/history/th...ignment-49787/

                    Do you think Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Poland were thrilled with the above?

                    The fate of Germany and many other European nations were what motivated the soldiers in the WSS. To the victor goes the spoils.
                    Clipped a bit of this to address some of the "defenders of the West" tripe that seems to rear its head whenever the Waffen SS is discussed.

                    Let's be clear about something, this wasn't some alturistic mission these men were on. They weren't interested in the wants of their fellow citizens, the vast majority of whom were quite happy to live under "Western" democractic principles. Over all these "defenders of Western civilization" wanted to install dictatorships in their homelands, dictatiorships of the right kind of people with none of those grubby trade unionists, immigrants or liberal democrats interfering and demanding things like votes, rights and elections. The fate of Europe they were concerned about was one in which their form of fascism was dominate and liberal democracy with all its unpleasant debating and comprising corruption was tossed in the dustbin.

                    I'd love for you to provide more details about Stalin's plans to invade Northwestern Europe. I'm familiar with his empire building in Eastern Europe but less about his concrete plans to invade North Western Europe.

                    I've always felt the Allied forces showed a better example of a multi-national army than the Axis ever managed to put together. You had Belgian, Polish, Dutch, French, Norwegian and Danish squadrons in the RAF, No 10 Inter-Allied Commando as well as other Polish, Belgian, French, etc units on the ground and a wide range of ships crewed by nationalities from around the globe fighting with the Western Allies.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post
                      Let's be clear about something, this wasn't some alturistic mission these men were on. They weren't interested in the wants of their fellow citizens, the vast majority of whom were quite happy to live under "Western" democractic principles. Over all these "defenders of Western civilization" wanted to install dictatorships in their homelands, dictatiorships of the right kind of people with none of those grubby trade unionists, immigrants or liberal democrats interfering and demanding things like votes, rights and elections. The fate of Europe they were concerned about was one in which their form of fascism was dominate and liberal democracy with all its unpleasant debating and comprising corruption was tossed in the dustbin.
                      The above is all true for the most part as far as "the big picture" is concerned but do you really think 100% of all the soldiers who passed through the ranks of the Waffen SS during the war were thinking about what Hitler and the Nazi heads had in mind for the future of Europe?

                      IMO, a large percentage of them, to what percent will never be known, genuinely feared Stalin and the communists.

                      I'd love for you to provide more details about Stalin's plans to invade Northwestern Europe. I'm familiar with his empire building in Eastern Europe but less about his concrete plans to invade North Western Europe.
                      I do not agree with the controversial author Vladimir Rezun (pen name Viktor Suvorov) on all of his conclusions based on his examinations of Stalinist era archives. IMO, Suvorov was wrong on the timing of Stalin's plan to strike which I believe would have been in mid to late 1942 after the Western Allies had depleted Hitler's forces. Here is an excerpt from an article on Suvorov's book The Chief Culprit :

                      A critical piece of evidence in this regard is his speech of August 19, 1939, recently uncovered in Soviet archives (quoted in part in the Nov.–Dec. 1997 Journal, pp. 32–33). In it, Lenin’s heir states:

                      The experience of the last 20 years has shown that in peacetime the Communist movement is never strong enough to seize power. The dictatorship of such a party will only become possible as the result of a major war . . .

                      Later on, all the countries who had accepted protection from resurgent Germany would also become our allies. We shall have a wide field to develop the world revolution.
                      Full article here: https://www.counter-currents.com/201...onquer-Europe/

                      I've always felt the Allied forces showed a better example of a multi-national army than the Axis ever managed to put together. You had Belgian, Polish, Dutch, French, Norwegian and Danish squadrons in the RAF, No 10 Inter-Allied Commando as well as other Polish, Belgian, French, etc units on the ground and a wide range of ships crewed by nationalities from around the globe fighting with the Western Allies.
                      Agreed. You could hardly call Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, and even Japan a real "Ally of Germany" The conduct of the countries I mentioned during the war proves as much.

                      Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post

                        The above is all true for the most part as far as "the big picture" is concerned but do you really think 100% of all the soldiers who passed through the ranks of the Waffen SS during the war were thinking about what Hitler and the Nazi heads had in mind for the future of Europe?

                        IMO, a large percentage of them, to what percent will never be known, genuinely feared Stalin and the communists.



                        I do not agree with the controversial author Vladimir Rezun (pen name Viktor Suvorov) on all of his conclusions based on his examinations of Stalinist era archives. IMO, Suvorov was wrong on the timing of Stalin's plan to strike which I believe would have been in mid to late 1942 after the Western Allies had depleted Hitler's forces. Here is an excerpt from an article on Suvorov's book The Chief Culprit :



                        Full article here: https://www.counter-currents.com/201...onquer-Europe/



                        Agreed. You could hardly call Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, and even Japan a real "Ally of Germany" The conduct of the countries I mentioned during the war proves as much.
                        You seem to have missed the point I was making so I’ll elaborate further. What Hitler’s plans are are moot to my point on the motivations of foreign SS members. The point I was making was this men are hardly the stalwart defenders of Western civilization that their supporters (up to the present day) have depicted. They were no democrats but most of them were politically frustrated men who had been isolated for years in the political systems of their respective countries by the requirements to win votes, follow voting regulations, campaign, negotiate and debate with opponents and ,heaven forbid enter into discussion and perhaps compromise with political opponents who they viewed as their inferiors. These kinds of actions are all parts of a healthy democracy, something these foreign volunteers had little interest in defending. The ideal of Europe they defended was one in which their respective parties were given ultimate and unchallenged control over their respective countries, something which could only happen under Nazi auspices and would be helped by them winning a place at the table by participating in the War in the East. This was their chance to move from the fringes and finally lord it over their fellow countrymen.

                        I was wondering if your source was Suvorov so I’m happy for the clarification. I have followed the debate over his work for years with interest as he is very popular in certain quarters. Let’s just say I’m not a subscriber to his viewpoint and leave it at that.
                        I also notice that the link you’ve chosen is not to an academic article but to Counter Currents publishing, a white nationalist website run by Greg Johnson. Not the most agenda free source.
                        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg...e_nationalist)







                        Last edited by CarpeDiem; 20 Jan 19, 07:08.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post
                          You seem to have missed the point I was making so I’ll elaborate further. What Hitler’s plans are are moot to my point on the motivations of foreign SS members. The point I was making was this men are hardly the stalwart defenders of Western civilization that their supporters (up to the present day) have depicted. They were no democrats but most of them were politically frustrated men who had been isolated for years in the political systems of their respective countries by the requirements to win votes, follow voting regulations, campaign, negotiate and debate with opponents and ,heaven forbid enter into discussion and perhaps compromise with political opponents who they viewed as their inferiors. These kinds of actions are all parts of a healthy democracy, something these foreign volunteers had little interest in defending. The ideal of Europe they defended was one in which their respective parties were given ultimate and unchallenged control over their respective countries, something which could only happen under Nazi auspices and would be helped by them winning a place at the table by participating in the War in the East. This was their chance to move from the fringes and finally lord it over their fellow countrymen.
                          I am of another opinion, although your points probably played a role also, we cannot know, for a certainty, to what extent. My view is that while the population of Europe wanted democratic governments, in which there is no place for fascism or communism, in 1940 they found themselves under the rule of one.To the soldiers of the WSS and also the Wehrmacht and its allies in Romania, Hungary, and Bulgaria their existed a fear of Stalin and communism. This is why they made the sacrifice of heading to the front and fighting the Bolshevists to the east. The point you are making that they were all social outcasts and far right I do not believe. Obviously they were not saving democracy in Europe because it was already gone once Hitler and the Nazis conquered northwestern Europe.


                          I also notice that the link you’ve chosen is not to an academic article but to Counter Currents publishing, a white nationalist website run by Greg Johnson. Not the most agenda free source.

                          The writer of the article is here:
                          Daniel W. Michaels


                          Daniel W. Michaels is a Columbia University graduate (Phi Beta Kappa, 1954), a Fulbright exchange student to Germany (1957), and recently retired from the US Department of Defense after 40 years of service.

                          More: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n3p40_Michaels.html










                          [/QUOTE]
                          Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

                          Comment


                          • https://www.amazon.com/Stumbling-Col...994672&sr=8-21

                            This book was largely written to oppose Sukorov, the main theme of it was that the Red Army was too ill-prepared to launch a pre-emptive invasion.

                            Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                            Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                            Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                            Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
                              The writer of the article is here:
                              Daniel W. Michaels


                              Daniel W. Michaels is a Columbia University graduate (Phi Beta Kappa, 1954), a Fulbright exchange student to Germany (1957), and recently retired from the US Department of Defense after 40 years of service.

                              More: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n3p40_Michaels.html
                              IHR? You linked to IHR to back up the credibility of your source?

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instit...torical_Review

                              The Institute for Historical Review (IHR), founded in 1978, is an American organization best known for publishing articles and books promoting Holocaust denial, a practice which attracted notoriety to the IHR.[2][3][4][5][6] It is considered by many scholars to be central to the international Holocaust denial movement.[2][7][8] IHR promotes antisemitic viewpoints
                              Call me old-fashioned in my history but I don't find alt-right political websites and holocaust denial sites good sources of history.

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                              • Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post
                                IHR? You linked to IHR to back up the credibility of your source?Call me old-fashioned in my history but I don't find alt-right political websites and holocaust denial sites good sources of history.
                                Was just pointing out his review of Suvorov's book originally was written for the IHR and not Greg Johnson who is a white supremacist. The IHR, however seems to be run by dubious people as well and Daniel W Michaels is also on the board of another dubious site of "historians" The Barnes Review (TBR) https://barnesreview.org/ which makes the IHR look like choir boys.

                                Daniels review of Suvorov's book is very interesting however and some of his arguments are, to me, deserved of further study.

                                Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

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