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The Waffen SS….. Soldiers like other soldiers?

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  • Originally posted by RichardS View Post


    Your Point 2: I don't have the book, but again I was talking more of organization than individuals. Even before La Paradis the Waffen-SS was capable of being good and decent to those they captured in the West. Yet still behaved with savagery. It's very quixotic.
    Marc R., author and researcher has made some posts on feldgrau that can't be viewed now. He said something alone the lines:

    Waffen SS divisions were governed by their command cadre and function. If their command cadre was very tolerant with crimes then the organization as a whole was "infected", like the Leibstandarte. However, there were Waffen SS divisions that acted more "correctly" like the 9th SS "H" due to their leading personalities being more intolerent towards crimes, like Heinz Harmel.

    Most definitely the WSS units with the most crimes were also the ones that specialized in anti-partisan warfare. The ones with the least were those front line units.

    Overall it's not a good generalization to say that, for instance, WSS don't take prisoners or so forth- because they actually did take a lot of them. Their acts of violence were usually traced to the brutal behavior of certain leading personalities.

    I have read of WSS commanders being under "criminal" investigation for certain crimes- Himmler would review these cases and pardon them. Himmler was overall, (naturally), loathe to lose effective commanders and didn't have any moral compunction.
    Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
    Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
    Barbarossa Derailed I & II
    Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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    • Cult I know you have that book on the prison facility for SS members. What were some of the more common reasons for their imprisonment?
      Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

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      • Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
        It would seem this thread is running off course and into the realm of what was acceptable as normal conduct towards humanity throughout the course of history.
        As far as I'm concerned, no. The point is complying with what your own country has freely accepted as "acceptable and normal", and not five centuries before, but a mere five years before.

        In 1934, Germany - Hitler already being in power - acceded to the Geneva Convention 1929 III for the protection of prisoners of war. Then on day one of the war, German forces proceeded to murder Polish National Guard personnel while they surrendered, and a few weeks later killed those that were allowed to surrender on September 1.
        You might wish to read Die Post von Danzig. Geschichte eines deutschen Justizmords (The Post Office of Gdansk. History of a German judicial murder).

        And to bring this back to the thread... guess who did the dirty work?
        Michele

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        • Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
          Cult I know you have that book on the prison facility for SS members. What were some of the more common reasons for their imprisonment?
          I'll get back to you on that- when I have more reading time.
          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

          Comment


          • Originally posted by marktwain View Post

            MUCH higher [use of stulants among SS personnel vs Wehrmacht] by all counts. the SS selected simple rural boys, fed them "Himmlerstoff" .
            by 1944-45, drugs were kind of necessary to keep going...
            You'd suggested earlier that the Waffen SS' reputation for ferocity might have been attributable to the SS' more rigorous program of indoctrination. I'm wondering if it wasn't attributable instead to a wider distribution of stimulants like Pervitin among Waffen SS personnel versus the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, or Kriegsmarine. Has anyone compiled the numbers for the distribution of stimulants among the various branches of the German armed forces during WW2? I've looked briefly but haven't found anything like that.
            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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            • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

              You'd suggested earlier that the Waffen SS' reputation for ferocity might have been attributable to the SS' more rigorous program of indoctrination. I'm wondering if it wasn't attributable instead to a wider distribution of stimulants like Pervitin among Waffen SS personnel versus the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, or Kriegsmarine. Has anyone compiled the numbers for the distribution of stimulants among the various branches of the German armed forces during WW2? I've looked briefly but haven't found anything like that.
              Most definitely not attributable to drugs, nor is it clear that the WSS elite units were more "ferocious" than the elite divisions of the Army. The more "rigorous" program of indoctrination was among the officers and nco cadres and the early war enlisted. The only elite SS division in the late war that had the indoctrinated qualities of the early-mid war was the 12.SS HJ in Normandy.


              https://www.amazon.com/Blitzed-Drugs...he+third+reich

              I have never heard of any evidence that the WSS took more drugs than anyone else. If anything, these drugs were heavily consumed by soldiers trying to stay awake during offensives of the early years. There was a lot of driving involved in completing an encirclement. That's the only place where I have read of it.
              Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
              Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
              Barbarossa Derailed I & II
              Battle of Kalinin October 1941

              Comment


              • I bought a copy of WSS Knights and their Battles vol. 4. I will post a brief preview of it later.


                https://www.amazon.com/Waffen-SS-Kni...8-4&ref=sr_1_4
                Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                  I bought a copy of WSS Knights and their Battles vol. 4. I will post a brief preview of it later.


                  https://www.amazon.com/Waffen-SS-Kni...8-4&ref=sr_1_4
                  Keep me posted. A copy of the JJF Leibstandarte volume one was selling for 90 dollars in "good" condition on Amazon today so I jumped on it. I'll let you know the outcome. Volume 2 is 400 and up. I'm always checking.
                  Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post

                    Keep me posted. A copy of the JJF Leibstandarte volume one was selling for 90 dollars in "good" condition on Amazon today so I jumped on it. I'll let you know the outcome. Volume 2 is 400 and up. I'm always checking.
                    I got LAH III for $55- for a long time it was hovering at $120 plus

                    I read a lot of Yerger's Totenkopf bios today. I have mixed feelings about it. He does a good job in ferreting the information on the soldier's CV (in a dry and factual way) and then the award citation (which tends to be a bit exaggerated, like all are in life) however in none of the bios did I get an authentic "feel" for the soldier himself and further insight into the organization besides that bravery, leadership, and initiative were highly valued. (traits not unique to Totenkopf)

                    Besides that I get the impression (besides totenkopf- the same for LAH and DR) that the origin WSS formations were more meticulous than average in recording achievements and awards. There were SS media like the Black Corps that reported on their achievements, too.

                    Yerger does not organize the bios in terms of RK's and German Cross in Gold winners. He just covers the German Cross in Gold winners and then...covers the Knight's Cross if the soldier (usually officer) won it. There also seemed to be a "logical" progression in winning awards for officers. The awards were not simply thrown and look like a "cherry" awarded after a lengthy series of accomplishments.

                    The SS T officers either had a longer pre-war officer school training and the truncated one in wartime was about 7 months. There were specialized courses, 1-2 months each. They often took some sort of "internship" with an army formation to get a specialized skill.

                    There were 33 Close combat clasps in Gold, the most in the Waffen SS. One NCO's bio (Panzer-grenadier) showed that he joined the SS in 1942, got his first CCC and the first two wound badges by the end of the year. He got his next wound badge and Silver CCC by the end of 44'. Then the Gold CCC in 45'.

                    The officer that was wounded in the most in TK : 16 times, the last wound was fatal.

                    I heard good things about the Mooney books, and the Volume 3 (August 43- Dec 43 on the Eastern Front) will be bought if I like 4.
                    Last edited by Cult Icon; 13 Jan 19, 00:32.
                    Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                    Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                    Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                    Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                    Comment


                    • Cult, which Yerger books do you have?

                      Leon Degrelle awarded medals to many of his men especially later in the war from Pomerania to the end. One of Degrelles men lost his left arm and eye and after a recovery period came back to fight alongside his comrades to the bitter end.
                      Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
                        Cult, which Yerger books do you have?

                        Leon Degrelle awarded medals to many of his men especially later in the war from Pomerania to the end. One of Degrelles men lost his left arm and eye and after a recovery period came back to fight alongside his comrades to the bitter end.
                        I was reading Totenkopf Vol. 1

                        I don't have any of the German Cross in Gold Series- they appear to be the same thing as Totenkopf, right? Vol. 1 and 2 are about Das Reich.
                        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post

                          I was reading Totenkopf Vol. 1

                          I don't have any of the German Cross in Gold Series- they appear to be the same thing as Totenkopf, right? Vol. 1 and 2 are about Das Reich.
                          Gentlemen.
                          This forum has a private messaging function which works. Please use it for personal discussions as this is what it is designed for rather than conducting your conversations in thread. These private conversations are off topic and thread derailing. Future personal messages will be removed.
                          Thank you
                          ACG Staff

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                          • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post

                            I was reading Totenkopf Vol. 1

                            I don't have any of the German Cross in Gold Series- they appear to be the same thing as Totenkopf, right? Vol. 1 and 2 are about Das Reich.
                            I have those 2 books on Das Reich and Yerger, IMHO, does a thorough research on all of the soldiers awarded the German Cross in Gold. It is not an "action packed memoir" as is Leon Degrelles book and countless others but it does relate, in a dry manner, what actions they were awarded for. Yergers books are dry in nature but very informative. He had vey close relationships with many older men who served with Das Reich back in the 90's when researching to create the 2 volumes. Many of them died before completion of the books. I highly recommend them.
                            Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

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                            • Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post

                              Gentlemen.
                              This forum has a private messaging function which works. Please use it for personal discussions as this is what it is designed for rather than conducting your conversations in thread. These private conversations are off topic and thread derailing. Future personal messages will be removed.
                              Thank you
                              ACG Staff
                              Apologies CD, I was writing my post above while you posted this and after I posted I saw it. No further book recommendations will be posted although I do not see how book recommendations on the subject of the thread should be deemed detrimental to it.
                              Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

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