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Death of the Leaping Horseman & Endgame in Stalingrad

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  • #91
    I finished it. What an 'endless' read. I started in 2014. The other half- 1,100 pages- is next.

    When you mention Degrelle/Wiking you mean this book? Kirtcher33 has mentioned this:

    http://www.amazon.com/Caucasus-Oil-G...us+and+the+oil
    Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
    Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
    Barbarossa Derailed I & II
    Battle of Kalinin October 1941

    Comment


    • #92
      Axis summer offensive until Dec 1942 inflicts 1,586,100 million casualties including around 887,000 permanent losses. Of these, 373,000 are from the Caucasus. VVS loses around 3,500 aircraft.

      up to mid-Nov, AGB Axis forces takes 200,000 casualties (130,000 in 6.AOK, 4.PzA) with 30,000 by Romanian 3.A/4.A and 40,000 in the 2.AOK/2.A (Hungarian).

      Against AGB, Soviets lose 4,862 tanks, Germans lost around 700.

      Germans lost around 300 tanks in the Caucasus. AGN/AGC lose 600 tanks.

      The personnel damage inflicted by AGS is similar to AGS in Barbarossa except with lower equipment losses. It is far less than the damage inflicted by AGC in Barbarossa.

      Pre-Uranus: 6.AOK's (14.Pz, 16.Pz, and 24.Pz) have around 150 operable tanks. AGS's PzD have 35-40 panzers each.
      Last edited by Cult Icon; 12 May 15, 02:46.
      Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
      Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
      Barbarossa Derailed I & II
      Battle of Kalinin October 1941

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
        I finished it. What an 'endless' read. I started in 2014. The other half- 1,100 pages- is next.

        When you mention Degrelle/Wiking you mean this book? Kirtcher33 has mentioned this:

        http://www.amazon.com/Caucasus-Oil-G...us+and+the+oil
        No some books available in french and easy to find for little money.
        Degrelle was belgium and intellectual, righ wing concervative in the 30's and he finished sturmbahn furher. I red his memories, and Caucasus was a bad place to be. I know Viking in Caucasus because a french "fan boy" of the earstern front wrote some books about those units.

        Comment


        • #94
          ^^

          I just bought that booklet The Caucasus 1942-43: Kleist's Race for Oil (Campaign) Paperback May 19, 2015). It's a pretty good read so far...a very interesting and well done synthesis.
          Last edited by Cult Icon; 21 May 15, 22:08.
          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

          Comment


          • #95
            I read the booklet and liked it.

            From author:

            R. A Forczyk says:
            I tried to set the volume's aftermath section up for a follow-on volume on the Kuban Campaign in February-October 1943, which is something on my list to tackle. Very little in English on the Kuban fighting.

            However in the interim, I do owe Osprey a second volume on Kursk and Dnepr 1943 will be out next March. In terms of non-Osprey writing, the second volume of my Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front will also be out early next year.
            That's two new booklets (Kursk 43, Dnepr 43) and a full book, "Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front 1943-1945".
            Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
            Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
            Barbarossa Derailed I & II
            Battle of Kalinin October 1941

            Comment


            • #96
              Of interest is Uranus. German CAS inflict very high tank losses during Uranus. The Soviet mobile forces have giant success against the Romanian formations but when dealing with the german mobile units tend to slow down against them, as if they were road-blocks.

              I have read much of Endgame I, and surprisingly 22.Pz (a brigade unit, based on 30-40 tanks (mostly Pz38t) and one regiment of infantry) and 29. Mot. offer stiff resistance on their own. This is quite similar to how 5.Pz did so during Bagration and is one of the many displays that mobile defense/fighting retreats can be done by motorized forces, and they do not simply fall apart.

              Of further interest is the unimpressive performance by the fought out 24.Pz, 14.Pz, and 16.Pz. Hube commands the korps. They failed to seriously impede the pincers. These units had been used up down to their last infantry battalions during Case Blue/ Stalingrad, and were brought back to strength to brigade sized by merging various components taken from other units. So as a formations they were incoherent. The 3 fielded 150 operational tanks max.

              The 2 x Soviet tank corps that attack these units succeed in pushing them back without much difficulty and Stalingrad becomes encircled.
              Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
              Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
              Barbarossa Derailed I & II
              Battle of Kalinin October 1941

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                Of interest is Uranus. German CAS inflict very high tank losses during Uranus. .
                Really? I did not get that from reading the Glantz book. My sense was that German air support was ineffectual due to poor weather and low serviceability rates. IIRC a large proportion of soviet tank losses were mechanical in nature during the opening phases of Uranus. Of course, since they controlled the battlefield, these losses were only temporary.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Nope, I don't think so. This was still Nov 1942, and the LF-4, while not as strong as it was in June 42' could still make substantial displays of strength. It made a 1,250 aircraft air support raid in late Oct.

                  1TC loses 30-40 tanks to CAS in a couple of days and comments are made about the other tank units taking losses from CAS. In the Little Saturn airfield raid the two raiding tank corps also take substantial losses to CAS. I don't know if these losses were permanent or repairable.
                  Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                  Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                  Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                  Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by AdrianE View Post
                    I did not get that from reading the Glantz book. My sense was that German air support was ineffectual due to poor weather and low serviceability rates.
                    From the 1 Tank Corps war diary:
                    19 November. Enemy aircraft didn't show up over the corps units.
                    20 November. From the morning some improvement of the weather; enemy aircraft immediately started operations over the corps units. After the noon the weather deteriorated and enemy aviation started operating less intensively.
                    21 November. From the dawn the corps was subjected to intensive air bombardment.
                    22 November. Enemy aviation bombs and strafes from low altitude corps columns and combat units.
                    23 November. Enemy aviation during the day methodically bombs and strafes corps location areas and combat formation of the 44 Motor Brigade.
                    24 November. During the day enemy aviation from low altitude incessantly bombs corps combat formations. Chir station and Novomaksimovskiy were subjected to especially strong bombardment.
                    And so on and so forth. I used to think myself that the weather was completely prohibitive for air forces, but it doesn't look so from original documents. I would take the notion of 30-40 tanks destroyed by Stukas rather sceptically though, because personnel losses were relatively moderate.

                    Comment


                    • what are the personnel losses?

                      The Soviet tank corps achieve their objectives largely by massing tanks; their infantry support is quite minimal.
                      Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                      Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                      Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                      Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                      Comment


                      • According to the unit history by Kirichenko: "Personnel losses during the four days of battle [19-22 November] were small. However were lost many tanks. Out of 130 tanks available at the start of the operation only 30 remained operational."
                        Which coincides more or less with info found in various war diaries, personnel losses were about tens of men in every brigade per day at most. The corps suffered really heavy losses at the later stages (after 22 Novermber, I mean) in the lower Chir River area, I can't say exactly what was the role of air bombardment.
                        their infantry support is quite minimal.
                        I disagree about minimal, anyway what I mean is that German didn't have dedicated antitank aircraft at that moment and used a normal bomber version of Stuka or even Ju-88 and He-111 medium bombers dropping HE bombs on columns or concentration areas. It was impossible to inflict heavy losses to tanks without proportional damage to men or soft-skin vehicles which were far more vulnerable. Speaking generally I'm rather skeptical about employment of HE bombs on AFVs especially well-armored. My impression is that they were not particularly effective in this role.

                        Comment


                        • The LF IV had destroyers (like ME-110), medium bombers, and stukas. The dive bombers were considerably more accurate than the other types and could target individual tanks and strike individual buildings (with the help of LW liason officers, up to 100 meters close from target).

                          There are examples in the book of this thread's name that depict groups of tanks getting neutralized by stuka staffel that were supporting 24.Pz. There is even a complaint noted by IIRC division CO of one attack day where he got destroyers instead of stukas- he considered the stukas more effective.

                          Perhaps the war diaries from LF-IV and its constituent fliegerkorps would help clarify.
                          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                          Comment


                          • Uranus (encirclement phase only) 19-23 Nov:

                            Romanian 3.A and 4.A: 90,000 casualties, including 37,000 captured.

                            Soviets claim 34,000 Germans killed/captured, putting total Axis personnel casualties to 124,000.

                            Axis armor: lost maximum 350 tanks/AG out of 520 (including 140 Romanian)

                            Axis forces encircled at Stalingrad: 284,000 Axis men including 20,000 Romanians. Not included in this figure is 60,000 Hiwis.

                            6.AOK: 175,000
                            4.AOK: 50,000

                            rest Romanians, auxiliary and Luftwaffe troops


                            Material in the pocket:

                            170 tanks and AG
                            322 Paks
                            535 artillery pieces
                            270 werfers
                            238 AA guns
                            10,000 vehicles

                            *** Of note:

                            Of the 21 German and 2 Romanian divisions encircled at Stalingrad, 1 was flak, 6 were mobile divisions, 6-7 were senior infantry divisions (the more professionalized ones).

                            149 independent battalions/regiments were also encircled (specialist assets, providing additional artillery, engineer, rocket, AA, AT, bridging, construction, etc. assets).
                            Last edited by Cult Icon; 31 May 15, 12:01.
                            Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                            Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                            Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                            Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                              Axis forces encircled at Stalingrad: 284,000 Axis men including 20,000 Romanians. Not included in this figure is 60,000 Hiwis.
                              Is that from Glantz? I believe that the number of encircled men was certainly less than 300 thousand. On 22 December 1942 the 6 Army reported 249 thousand men in the pocket including 13 000 Romanians, 19 300 Hiwis and about 6 000 wounded:
                              https://www.bundesarchiv.de/oeffentl...dex-59.html.de
                              An earlier report from 6 December gives the ration strength as 275 000 including 20 300 Hiwis and 11 000 Romanians:
                              http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...694048#p694048

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
                                According to the unit history by Kirichenko: "Personnel losses during the four days of battle [19-22 November] were small. However were lost many tanks. Out of 130 tanks available at the start of the operation only 30 remained operational."
                                Which coincides more or less with info found in various war diaries, personnel losses were about tens of men in every brigade per day at most. The corps suffered really heavy losses at the later stages (after 22 Novermber, I mean) in the lower Chir River area, I can't say exactly what was the role of air bombardment.

                                I disagree about minimal, anyway what I mean is that German didn't have dedicated antitank aircraft at that moment and used a normal bomber version of Stuka or even Ju-88 and He-111 medium bombers dropping HE bombs on columns or concentration areas. It was impossible to inflict heavy losses to tanks without proportional damage to men or soft-skin vehicles which were far more vulnerable. Speaking generally I'm rather skeptical about employment of HE bombs on AFVs especially well-armored. My impression is that they were not particularly effective in this role.
                                Not operational might mean just not running... or tracks blown off or something. Not effective really but out of action is... out of action.
                                SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

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