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Elite Units of the German Army 1939-1945

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  • Thanks Cult for the figures and link.
    Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

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    • Did anyone see where the Hermann Goering Panzer Division was?

      Pruitt
      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
        Did anyone see where the Hermann Goering Panzer Division was?

        Pruitt
        All HG formations:

        "Hermann Göring" ("HG") formations [page 27]
        (Flak-)Regiment "General Göring" : 4 KC
        [DKiG : 4]
        Division "Hermann Göring" (North Africa) : 8 KC
        [DKiG : 12 , EBS : 1]
        Panzer-Division "HG" : 4 KC (2 RK + 2 EL)
        [DKiG : 32]
        Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 "HG" : 32 KC (30 RK + 2 EL) [incl 1 unoff ]
        [DKiG : 7]
        Fallschirm-Panzergrenadier-Division 2 "HG" : 8 KC (6 RK + 1 EL + 1 SW)
        [DKiG : 2 , NKiG : 1]
        Fallschirm-Panzerkorps "HG"/ Korpstruppen : 5 KC (4 RK + 1 EL)
        [DKiG : 3 , NKiG : 1]
        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

        Comment


        • I did a quick count of the RK's awarded right after the 3rd Battle of Kharkov for the SS PzG divisions and got 15 for LAH, 13 for DR, and 8 for TK.

          According to Mooney's count, DR and LAH were matched in RK awards after the "third campaign in Russia" (ending May 1944) - 48 for both. TK had 40. Wiking had 45.
          Last edited by Cult Icon; 01 Feb 19, 08:40.
          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

          Comment


          • Total high awards (RK + GCG), most to least among highly decorated formations

            Army PzD, G.D., and W-SS PzD


            G.D.: 277
            4.Pz: 251
            5.SS: 247
            2.SS: 246

            5.Pz: 209
            14.Pz: 203
            16.Pz: 193
            11.Pz: 192
            9.Pz: 191
            17.Pz: 191
            3.Pz: 188
            12.Pz: 185
            13.Pz: 183
            24.Pz: 182
            3.SS: 180
            6.Pz: 174
            1.SS: 166
            7.Pz: 163
            19.Pz: 163
            23.Pz: 152
            1.Pz: 144
            20.Pz: 143
            8.Pz: 136
            2.Pz: 125


            PzGD (Army and WSS):

            20.PzG: 171
            3.PzG: 157
            16.PzG: 145
            25.PzG: 139
            29.PzG: 119
            18.PzG:119
            10.PzG: 113
            Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
            Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
            Barbarossa Derailed I & II
            Battle of Kalinin October 1941

            Comment


            • I received a copy of "German Cross in Gold Holders of the SS and Police vol. 1" recently and what struck me about Vol. 1 (of two volumes) on the 2.SS Division is how much their officer and nco corps look like male models- clearly the idea of a "superman" was overly concerned with their height and physical (including facial) appearance. Even their uniforms are especially well tailored and look higher quality than other german units. Appearances were valued.

              The Totenkopf officers and ncos listed in "Totenkopf vol. 2 (the first vol. I will get later) are more ordinary looking. The Totenkopf was not as strict as the LAH and SS-VT/Reich in their selection progress.
              Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
              Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
              Barbarossa Derailed I & II
              Battle of Kalinin October 1941

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                I received a copy of "German Cross in Gold Holders of the SS and Police vol. 1" recently and what struck me about Vol. 1 (of two volumes) on the 2.SS Division is how much their officer and nco corps look like male models- clearly the idea of a "superman" was overly concerned with their height and physical (including facial) appearance. Even their uniforms are especially well tailored and look higher quality than other german units. Appearances were valued.

                The Totenkopf officers and ncos listed in "Totenkopf vol. 2 (the first vol. I will get later) are more ordinary looking. The Totenkopf was not as strict as the LAH and SS-VT/Reich in their selection progress.
                Your post re-activated another observation i made when reading Names of the SS people. There are quite a few -ski -cni -ak etc rather slavic sounding surnames in their Ranks. So it seems supossed ancestry due to Names wasn't really an issue. While reading a book about some guy in Peipers battalion i once even read the name: "Kurt Israel" captioned under a photo of soldiers of the battalion, something quite well strange given the stance of the SS.

                Comment


                • pg. 25 "Waffen SS at War " (Stein) has something I've never heard about- in 1938 the SS-VT was to be converted into a SS paratroop division but then it was reversed and converted into a mobile assault force.

                  Among the units of the pre-war Waffen SS- Regiment Deutschland was the most advanced in its training.

                  The conversion to a mobile unit took 3 months. in 1939, after large scaled exercises to Hitler, an SS artillery regiment was raised.
                  Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                  Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                  Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                  Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by bierbaron View Post

                    Your post re-activated another observation i made when reading Names of the SS people. There are quite a few -ski -cni -ak etc rather slavic sounding surnames in their Ranks. So it seems supossed ancestry due to Names wasn't really an issue. While reading a book about some guy in Peipers battalion i once even read the name: "Kurt Israel" captioned under a photo of soldiers of the battalion, something quite well strange given the stance of the SS.
                    I didn't get that impression with DR and TK yet, however half of the Waffen SS came from outside of Germany. Yes, the SS was a racial aristocracy that was pan-european.

                    I'm getting Totenkopf vol. 1 soon
                    Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                    Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                    Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                    Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                    Comment


                    • If a family name is Slavic origin. Erwin Rommel is from Swabia, but there was a Polish general by the name of Rommel as well. The Berlin area had a lot of foreign names as well. There were two Slavic areas in Saxony (Sorbs and Wends) and other similar groups.

                      Pruitt
                      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                      Comment


                      • A bit of a preview of : German Cross in Gold Holders 1 (out of 8 volumes)- Das Reich

                        Unlike the Totenkopf series (out of 2), this series does not have special chapters on the division. It starts with commander bios, then 1st General Staff officer bios. The rest cover the GCG holders.

                        Between Totenkopf II and Das Reich I, the latter has done a much more complete job of studying the combat actions for the GCG- this is probably because out of the hundreds of SS contacts the author had, he seems to have been closest to the 2nd SS division.

                        With the Totenkopf series, the two volumes are essentially two book types (Divisional and GCG) merged together while the GCG series deals with personnel only.

                        GCG 1-2 Das Reich

                        3 Nordland
                        4 SS Calvary formations
                        5-6 SS Police formations
                        7-8 Wiking


                        http://www.bender-publishing.com/Ger...sGoldVol8.html

                        I would say that besides the commander/staff officer sections (informative as a whole) a major value of the GCG is that the combat actions can be traced to various battles/campaigns as a form of descriptive tactical detail.
                        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                        Comment


                        • German Cross in Gold- an award given out for more or less 5 leadership actions spanning 1941-1945. I find that for 2.SS and 3.SS the majority was given to infantry and to platoon and company commanders for good small unit leadership days. Seems to have low if any propaganda value at all, especially compared to the RK. :

                          5.SS and 2.SS are at the top of the pack, 3.SS is in the middle and 1.SS is at the bottom.

                          G.D.:218
                          5.SS: 180
                          4.Pz: 167
                          17.Pz:164
                          2.SS: 156
                          5.Pz: 152
                          14.Pz:149
                          13.Pz:142
                          3.Pz: 141
                          11.Pz:140
                          24.Pz:135
                          12.Pz: 131
                          9.Pz:130
                          3.PzG:126
                          3.SS:125
                          20.PzG:125
                          6.Pz:124
                          23.Pz:121
                          19.Pz:118
                          7.Pz:116
                          16.PzG:113
                          25.PzG:110
                          1.Pz:108
                          1.SS:101
                          2.Pz:92
                          18.PzG:92
                          29.PzG:90
                          10.PzG:90
                          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                          Comment


                          • According to GCG1, the DR veterans interviewed by Yerger most commonly cited Manstein's 4th Panzer Army counteroffensive (3rd Kharkov) as being the most intense combat they experienced in WW2.

                            The vast majority of GCG days in GCG1 DR were awarded for Eastern Front combat 41-43- surprisingly little on Normandy, Westwall, and the Ardennes & 1945.

                            -Injured and/or disabled Waffen SS officers/ncos were sent to non-combat roles- often to SS officer and arms training schools.
                            Last edited by Cult Icon; 03 Mar 19, 10:56.
                            Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                            Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                            Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                            Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post

                              GCG 1-2 Das Reich

                              3 Nordland
                              4 SS Calvary formations
                              5-6 SS Police formations
                              7-8 Wiking
                              .
                              The 4th SS Police division is a often-neglected unit even though it was one the original SS formations. It was formed out of German policemen (Himmler took over control of the police) that were transferred into an SS unit and they wore their original police uniforms. Later on, the policemen were transferred into the SS. I remember this unit from the late war 1944-1945 battles on the eastern front where it was a PzG division.

                              Given how strong of a complement these books are for divisional histories, there is a two-volume history on the 4.SS Police division on the Eastern Front that should combine well with 5-6 SS Police formations. This division spent much of its existence as a regular horse-drawn infantry division and then was upgraded to a PzG division in the late war- given the lack of divisional history books on horse-drawn units in english the two volume series "In Good Faith" should be very insightful on a how the average infantry division functioned.

                              On anti-partisan warfare, the 4th GCG volume should combine well Yerger's own book on SS Calvary. There is also the censored history on the 7th SS Prinz Eugen, long paper on 8th SS, and books on war crimes (like Hitler's Bandit hunters)
                              Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                              Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                              Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                              Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                              Comment


                              • Tissier's "With our backs to Berlin" has a lot of interesting interviewed/researched accounts of various armored ncos and officers that fought in the battle for Berlin.

                                The final account is the most interesting- it covers the final actions of the LAH Kampfgruppe Mohnke and the defense of the Reichstag. This also includes the famous breakout after Hitler's death with elements of 11th SS Nordland and high nazi officials (Martin Bormann was killed in this group).

                                LAH NCO (close combat clasp in gold, german cross in gold, 8 battle wounds) Rogmann was the real deal- he had a talent for survival. His German cross in gold citation was largely achieved in defensive fighting in Jan 1944.

                                Some insights from the account:

                                -His commanding officer gave him the choice to desert or fight in Berlin. He chose the latter out of sense of duty despite having a family.

                                - He was police trooper that was drafted into the LAH as a replacement. In a division of 6 footers he was the shortest man in SS regiment 2. His track record was essentially that of a good fighter and squad leader/platoon.

                                - He was nominated for the Knight's Cross but his commanding officer was killed before it could go through.

                                -preferred weapon was a captured Sten gun that was originally meant to be used by partisans. His second favorite weapon was an Italian Beretta SMG. He disfavored the MP-40 due to its tendency to jam.

                                -Like other accounts the award system seems to have functioned as a way german soldiers could quickly size up a man that they didn't know. Knight's Cross holders were respected, however in this case he was with a combat-inexperienced officer candidate with "only" the Iron Cross 2nd class. He comments that this was probably due to the kid's connections and he later comments on him being incompetent. This is the not the first time that I read an account that indicates that German officer candidates needed to get the Iron Cross 1st class as a NCO before they could be sent to OCS.
                                Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                                Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                                Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                                Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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