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German tank production plans 1945 and tank destroyers in tank units

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Emtos View Post
    Thank you. Did you found it on forum ?
    That's from a NARA folder with captured German documents which can be downloaded from the web:
    https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...33498#p2033498

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
      I can see that the Pz IV production shifted heavily to the Jadpanzer IV.
      The story is explained in the Guderian's files. It seems that Hitler in June 44 wanted to abandon production of PzIV altogether in favor of turretless assault guns. After Guderian protested stating in particular that turretless vehicles had tactical limitations a compromise decision was made to produce 300 Pz-IV monthly and install a 70-caliber gun on Pz-IV chassis produced above that number:
      http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/r...inspect/zoom/5

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      • #18
        It's striking to me that they respected the SPG-type so much at the end that so much of the venerable Pz IV production facilities were converted to producing Jadpanzer IV. I haven't found evidence that the PzJ or replacement tank units in the Wehrmacht were particularly effective. It was Artillery's Stug units that were.
        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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        • #19
          One of the points invoked in the discussion regarding tanks/assault guns was that assault guns suffered proportionally less losses. To which Guderian replied that the difference in losses was due to different tactical employment. He also stated that turretless vehicles were were not suitable for a kind of country in Normandy with many hedges limiting mobility and blocking the line of fire. See the entire case for tanks presented here:
          http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/r...inspect/zoom/4

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
            One of the points invoked in the discussion regarding tanks/assault guns was that assault guns suffered proportionally less losses. To which Guderian replied that the difference in losses was due to different tactical employment. He also stated that turretless vehicles were were not suitable for a kind of country in Normandy with many hedges limiting mobility and blocking the line of fire. See the entire case for tanks presented here:
            http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/r...inspect/zoom/4
            The point about hedges is true to a point but Normandy is not all bocage. The area infront od Caen contained much rolling downland that geave the defending German AFVs very good lines of sight - much like the glacis of a huge fort.
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
              One of the points invoked in the discussion regarding tanks/assault guns was that assault guns suffered proportionally less losses. To which Guderian replied that the difference in losses was due to different tactical employment. He also stated that turretless vehicles were were not suitable for a kind of country in Normandy with many hedges limiting mobility and blocking the line of fire. See the entire case for tanks presented here:
              http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/r...inspect/zoom/4
              i think I read a reprint of this report in Anderson's Stug books.

              Notable is that he doesn't differentiate between whether the Stug was serving in Stug or PzJ units and if this made a difference. Certainly a greater portion of the Stug was in the Artillery branch at the time of the commentary. So it looks to me that his defense of the tank was based on countering the high reputation of the Stug battalions/brigades of the Eastern Front at the time.
              Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
              Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
              Barbarossa Derailed I & II
              Battle of Kalinin October 1941

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Emtos View Post
                I have two questions.

                2. Did German used tank destroyers/assault guns in tank companies instead of tanks ? Not in panzerjager role but in tank units. How much units did this ?

                Thnak you.
                StuG III
                The Pz.Div. lost at Stalingrad (14., 16., 24.,) were reformed in early 1943 as "heavy divisions" with a three battalion Pz.Rgt. including a third Panzer-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung with StuG III's instead of Panzerjäger-Abteilung. The Hermann Göring Division was organized in a similiar fashion. 9. SS, 10. SS and Pz.Gren.Div. Feldherrnhalle had two Pz. IV companies replaced with StuGs basically from the get go in late 1943. Other divisions had a single company or even less StuGs within the Panzer-Regiment (26. Pz.Div., 5. SS) as early as late 1943. The 5. and 12. Pz.Div. only began to employ StuGs within the Panzer-Regiments in late 1944/early 1945. Until then both divisions followed the Pz.Div. 43/44 standard organization with one battalion Panther and one battalion Pz. IV. Although 12. Pz.Div. retained some III lg among its Pz.Kpfw. IV throughout 1944.


                StuG IV
                Partially or fully: 4. SS, 5. SS, 17. SS, 20. Pz.Gren.Div., 90. Pz.Gren.Div.
                In smaller numbers towards the end of the war also used by:
                Pz.Div.: 1., 3., 4., 5., 16., 20., 23., Führer-Grenadier-Div., Führer-Begleit-Div.
                Pz.Gren.Div.: 10.,

                Jagdpanzer IV
                Pz.Div.: 4., Hermann Göring 1, Hermann Göring 2, Müncheberg, Großdeutschland

                Panzer IV/70(A)
                Pz.Div.: 3., 7., 13., 17., 23., 24., 25., Führer-Begleit-Div., Müncheberg
                Pz.Gren.Div.: 20., 25., Kurmark

                Panzer IV/70(V)
                Pz.Gren.Div.: 10., 15., 17. SS, 18., 20., 25.,
                Pz.Div.: 2. SS, 7., 9., 9. SS, 13., 16., 17., 20., 21., 25., Feldherrnhalle, Jüterbog, Müncheberg, Schlesien, Großdeutschland

                Jagdpanzer 38(t)
                Pz.Div.: Feldherrnhalle 2, Müncheberg

                However in many cases the number of tank destroyers/assault guns was very small as the were often obtained by incorporating the remains of destroyed units.

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