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  • Panther G a "Dog" too?

    After reading "Panther vs T-34," and the flaws in the D & A models that led to breaking down, catching fire, etc., and despite having an excellent gun, they appear to have been "dogs" to me...totally unreliable. Were these problems solved with the G model, or was it plagued with breaking down and catching fire also? Was the G as unreliable as the D & A were?

  • #2
    I believe that most of the tanks weaknesses were worked out..
    However the engine and drives still remained a weak point for the Panther throughout the production run on all types. Panther34/85, and Achtung baby could probably help out on this more though.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by deterrumeversor View Post
      I believe that most of the tanks weaknesses were worked out..
      However the engine and drives still remained a weak point for the Panther throughout the production run on all types. Panther34/85, and Achtung baby could probably help out on this more though.
      ME!

      Hey give me time lads, been working all weekend and need time to refresh the archives. On the top of my head I would say some of the problems were never fully ironed out, be that engine and transmission. For all it's worth the Panther was a complicated machine to maintain in the field and in light of the eroding supplies and fuel as the war progressed, not an ideal tank to utilize for the German war effort.
      "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
      Ernest Hemingway.

      "The more I learn about people, The more I love my dog".
      Mark Twain.

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      • #4
        The engine is the same as in the Tiger, BTW.

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        • #5
          Panther

          Originally posted by Achtung baby View Post
          ME!

          Hey give me time lads, been working all weekend and need time to refresh the archives. On the top of my head I would say some of the problems were never fully ironed out, be that engine and transmission. For all it's worth the Panther was a complicated machine to maintain in the field and in light of the eroding supplies and fuel as the war progressed, not an ideal tank to utilize for the German war effort.
          Agreed. I have the history of the 654 PzJgAbt, and this mentions that Jagdpanther final drives often only lasted 35 km. Admittedly this TD was slightly heavier than the Panther tank, but not by much. Factor in reduced training times, crumbling logistics, less time for sleep and maintenance and its not surprising that reliability declined further.

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          • #6
            I gather the Panther was "an expensive fuel hog" (Panther vs T-34 book), which didn't help matters. Further, I think I remember some commentary on this forum about the Panther's armor falling off in quality...cracking when hit, etc.

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            • #7
              From a posting under Poll - The real one you area panzer commander:

              I wouldnt want a G model Panther because of several factors -

              1. Thin side armor that even an American Bazooka {Only 60mm BTW} could penetrate with ease.

              2. Some had chin mantlets and some didnt, which one are we talking here? If its the late model with the Chin mantlet, that came with another suprise all its own in that the front armor had flaws in some tanks from using substandard steel. A round would crack the armor plate like a sledgehammer hitting a block of ice. With disasterous consequenses i might add.

              3. On occasion the Flame Suppressor exhaust system had a nasty habit of catching on fire.

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              • #8
                Perhaps someone could post the overall (i.e. for the entire Red Army) availability ratio of the T-34, so that we may compare the it to the Panther (the numbers for the Panthers is available in Panzer Truppen Vol. 2)? Until then, any reference to one being more reliable than the other is rediculous.
                Panzerworld
                Preserved Military Vehicle Registry Project More than 1000 Second World War-era museum vehicles on record

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                • #9
                  The biggest problem I heard of was that spline gear in the final drive, instead of the curved gears that our tanks had at the time.

                  However, overall, it was still a great tank. I would have prefered it to anything, with the possible exeption of the Tiger II.
                  If the Panther was such a dog, what would you have climbed into to take it on?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by C. Ankerstjerne View Post
                    Perhaps someone could post the overall (i.e. for the entire Red Army) availability ratio of the T-34, so that we may compare the it to the Panther (the numbers for the Panthers is available in Panzer Truppen Vol. 2)? Until then, any reference to one being more reliable than the other is rediculous.
                    What is the point you are trying to make? There are many references to the T-34 being one of the most durable tanks to come out of WW II. Likewise, there are many references to the Panther as being not all that durable and constantly breaking down. Why are these points rediculous?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tom D View Post
                      There are many references to the T-34 being one of the most durable tanks to come out of WW II. Likewise, there are many references to the Panther as being not all that durable and constantly breaking down.
                      There sure are - so with so many accounts of the T-34 being so durable, one would think that it would be very easy to find some actual documentation in support of this. Yet, no one has ever been able to supply me with any large-scale availability rates for the T-34 which would actually prove those accounts.

                      Originally posted by Tom D View Post
                      What is the point you are trying to make? [...] Why are these points rediculous?
                      My point is that people have a tendency to repeat hearsay over and over again, without any evidence to support it. Eventually, this hearsay becomes accepted as truth, and are no longer regarded as requiring documentation, despite the documentation never being there in the first place. This is not logical, nor is it even reasonable, and thus it is ridiculous.

                      Anyone who makes a factual statement in a debate must be able to argument for that statement, if challenged, or the statement must be discarded from the debate.

                      Note that I am not looking for quotes from books stating that the T-34 was durable here. Those are a dime a dozen. What I'm looking for is actual, verifiable evidence, i.e. Red Army availability reports.
                      Panzerworld
                      Preserved Military Vehicle Registry Project More than 1000 Second World War-era museum vehicles on record

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by C. Ankerstjerne View Post
                        Anyone who makes a factual statement in a debate must be able to argument for that statement, if challenged, or the statement must be discarded from the debate.
                        I do NOT dispute anything you said in your reply. However, I wasn't looking for a debate, just responses to my post:

                        After reading "Panther vs T-34," and the flaws in the D & A models that led to breaking down, catching fire, etc., and despite having an excellent gun, they appear to have been "dogs" to me...totally unreliable. Were these problems solved with the G model, or was it plagued with breaking down and catching fire also? Was the G as unreliable as the D & A were?

                        I would think your posts here would be more appropriate under:

                        Osprey's "Panther vs T-34 Ukraine 1943"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Tom, panther3485 did a post about the Panther in response to another question in the WW2 forum... from a thread I did some time ago!

                          Link!

                          Hope this also helps answer in part your question!

                          Just remember that these engines, the HL230 were fitted with a governor to extend the life of the engine as well as reducing other drive train issues... 2000 hours between each engine change over I think, correct me if wrong.
                          "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                          Ernest Hemingway.

                          "The more I learn about people, The more I love my dog".
                          Mark Twain.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Achtung baby View Post
                            Tom, panther3485 did a post about the Panther in response to another question in the WW2 forum... from a thread I did some time ago!

                            Link!

                            Hope this also helps answer in part your question!
                            Yes, it does, thanks!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tom D View Post
                              Yes, it does, thanks!
                              Thanks to panther3485 too...
                              "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                              Ernest Hemingway.

                              "The more I learn about people, The more I love my dog".
                              Mark Twain.

                              Comment

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