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  • Panzer sinks Destroyer

    http://members.aol.com/ladung/destroy.htm

  • #2
    myth.............
    Wild Swann(D62), Venomous(D75) and Venetia(D53) Whilst evacuating Allied troops from Boulogne on 23/5/40 engaged some German tanks in the harbour area. It is reported that the guns of these Destroyers were very effective when used against ground targets. All 3 ships recieved some damage but none were sunk and they made it back home.
    A destroyer is in effect a battery of guns of various sizes. It could easily dispose of any tank foolish enough to engage it.

    "The panzers in question were two Pz IV Ds of Olt. v. Jarowski's kompanie of Panzer Regiment 3, 2. Panzer Division (which kompanie/Abteilung this is I do not know). The event is described in the Regiment War Diary, accompanied by two photographs. While the battle took place on 23 May, the photos were taken on 25 May. One shows Feldwebel Langhammer with the aforementioned destroyer "tally" painted on his tank, and the other is the wreck of the believed vessel. The wreck photograph is clearly of the French contre-torpilleur Chacal, which was actually bombed and sunk by He-111 aircraft on 24 May in the same general area as the events of 23 May.

    The battle, as described, was against a French destroyer attempting to land troops. In the event, the French warships in the harbour, elements of the 2ème flotille de torpilleurs including Cyclone, Mistral, and Siroco of the 6ème division, Orage and Bourrasque of the 4ème division, and Frondeur and Fougeux of the 2ème flotille, along with the Chacal and Jaguar of the 2ème Division de Contre-Torpilleurs intent on landing demolition parties and evacuating personnel. The German tanks actually duelled with Mistral which, with Siroco, retired to the outer harbor exactly as desribed by the German report after they had debarked the intended personnel. Shortly thereafter, Orage and Frondeur were attacked by a large formation of Ju-87 Stukas and the former was sunk, her fires evidently being sighted ashore. Her survivors were rescued by Frondeur and Bourrasque. The next day the contre-torpilleur Chacal was bomber and sunk by a formation of He-111s. The wreck was beached in basically the same area that that Orage had be sunk the day before. That same day the port surrendered. The day after, the panzer troops, exploring the area, came upon Chacal's wreck and assumed that fires caused by their guns had resulted in her loss."

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    • #3
      A reason to vet web-sites before posting

      This is a prime example of why websites cannot be trusted as sources without very carefully back-checking the facts. Had M Kenny not posted the myth behind the post about tanks sinking DDs the German fan-boys around here (and elsewhere) would be howling at the moon.
      Last edited by The Purist; 03 Sep 07, 18:17.
      The Purist

      Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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      • #4
        Noted! Is there a "snopes" site that provides for checking any and all episodes? I suspect not, so I am open to suggestions, purist. You and m kenny obviously have a wealth of historical knowledge and can recognize an incorrect reported episode. I admire that. For some of us who do not have that knowledge, we are at a great disadvantage. Regardless, I am not discouraged and stand willingly to be corrected...it's a form of a learning process for me.

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        • #5
          The Purist
          There is no difference between websites and books in, terms of accuracy, as long as the subject is properly researched. The webpage in question is a testament to this, as one of the sources used is a book.

          The error of the author of both the webpage and the book, is that they have only looked at the German account, and only one account at that. Cross-referencing with other unit accounts would have revealed that more than one unit claimed the destruction of the ship. Some types of accounts always requires verification by other sources, namely those which involves a third party (whereas other accounts, such as a unit strength and casualty report, can be taken at face value).

          This incident is also a good example of erroneous German claims, due to faulty assessment of the cause of the casualty.
          Panzerworld
          Preserved Military Vehicle Registry Project More than 1000 Second World War-era museum vehicles on record

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          • #6
            Originally posted by C. Ankerstjerne
            ...The error of the author of both the webpage and the book, is that they have only looked at the German account, and only one account at that. Cross-referencing with other unit accounts would have revealed that more than one unit claimed the destruction of the ship. Some types of accounts always requires verification by other sources, namely those which involves a third party (whereas other accounts, such as a unit strength and casualty report, can be taken at face value)....
            As noted a web page or book is only as good as the sources used. Unfortunately, too many web pages are full of rubbish and do not list sources.
            The Purist

            Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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            • #7
              I agree, but there are also a lot of websites with some valuable, primary-source research out there (such as Christoph Awender's http://www.wwiidaybyday.com). In your statement, This is a prime example of why websites cannot be trusted as sources without very carefully back-checking the facts, you could just as well have written articles in lieu of websites.
              Panzerworld
              Preserved Military Vehicle Registry Project More than 1000 Second World War-era museum vehicles on record

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              • #8
                Originally posted by C. Ankerstjerne
                ... In your statement, "This is a prime example of why websites cannot be trusted as sources without very carefully back-checking the facts, you could just as well have written articles in lieu of websites.
                Generally I would agree. I do not use either magazine articles or websites as main sources of information without being able to verify the statements. Once that is done, one might as well simply reference the main source rather than the article or website anyway,...so they still fall into second or third place in ranking. There is still no substitute for a solidly researched book containing chapter notes and an extensive bibliography.
                The Purist

                Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                • #9
                  If you are actually using the source of the article as a source yourself, then that is of course fine, but there would be cases where it would not be that easy. For example, if a website article is based on primary sources, which have not been used as a source before and to which the general public does not have access, getting hold of these documents would likely prove quite difficult.

                  The Internet, as a medium, is build to accommodate the exchange of scientific articles, and there is no reason why an Internet (or magazine) article can not be as trustworthy as a book, as long as academic requirements are met. Inversely, there are lots of books out there with extensive notes and bibliographies which are not worth the paper they are printed on.
                  Panzerworld
                  Preserved Military Vehicle Registry Project More than 1000 Second World War-era museum vehicles on record

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                  • #10
                    I was going to come in here and "Bust" this myth and i see M. Kenny beat me to it on this one. It is quite ridiculus to think any one tank could sink a Destroyer, LOL.
                    http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...200pixwide.jpg

                    Kampfgruppe - A Wargaming Clan Since 1998

                    NorbertSnyderJr.com

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                    • #11
                      Some panzertruppen pipe dream, and of course it makes good propaganda as well, so the story gets spread. I've seen this story on and off over the years. I'd like to see a 7.5cm pop gun stare down a 3" or 5" destroyer main battery, I used to watch our 5" gun on my destroyer toss armoured vehicles we'd hit in the air.
                      Eternal War(gaming) Armoured Struggle Car Bob

                      History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis.
                      Lazarus Long

                      Draw the blinds on yesterday and it's all so much scarier....
                      David Bowie

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                      • #12
                        I have read of 88 mm guns badly damaging (but not sinking) a British destroyer, but a British 4.7" naval gun would reduce any tank to scrap with no difficulty - the case where British DDs shot up Panzers in 1940 as related by M Kenny is well documented. Rather them than me!

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                        • #13
                          Last words of a Panzer Crewman, before the engagement,

                          "Mein Kapitan! Are you out of your freckin' mind!!!"
                          Eternal War(gaming) Armoured Struggle Car Bob

                          History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis.
                          Lazarus Long

                          Draw the blinds on yesterday and it's all so much scarier....
                          David Bowie

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PzKfwBob View Post
                            Last words of a Panzer Crewman, before the engagement,

                            "Mein Kapitan! Are you out of your freckin' mind!!!"
                            Tank commander replies "nein schweinhunde" just before they retire him to the Reich's home for retired Panzer commanders.
                            Last edited by Post Captain; 16 Sep 07, 10:07.
                            Never Fear the Event

                            Admiral Lord Nelson

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