Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

True or false ?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • True or false ?


    Look at myth number 2 . Is it true ?
    I know that at Prokhorovka 300 German tanks come head-to-head with 800 Russian tanks and resulted the biggest tank battle in history.
    Also look at myth number 3. I tought it was true... .
    What can you say about that ?

  • #2
    galex - where are these "myths"? Where can they be found?

    Comment


    • #3
      Oh sorry, I forgot about the link :
      http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm

      Comment


      • #4
        Ad 1: Definitely true, Zitadelle was a strategic operation, not a battle.

        Ad 2: Also true. The scale of Prokhorovka has been greatly inflated in post-war literature.

        Ad 3: As such also true, but the article makes a strange notion of only four Tigers available. This is only for Prokhorovka, the grand total for Zitadelle being 147 (not including reinforcements), of which 13 were lost.

        Ad 4: Also true.

        Ad 5: I couldn't find any information on the weather, but it sounds plausible, when looking at photographs from Zitadelle.

        Ad 6: Also true, but do note that the total number of Panthers sent to participate in Zitadelle was 200 (plus four Bergepanthers) with Panzer-Regiment 39 and the total number of Ferdinands was 89 (and not the often-quoted number of 90, as two of the 91 total of Ferdinands manufactured were kept in Germany for testing). As mentioned, the total number of Tigers was 147.

        Ad 7: This is somewhat more controversial, as it can't be directly proven false (the arguments presented at circumstantial).

        Ad 8: Again, this is more controversial.
        Panzerworld
        Preserved Military Vehicle Registry Project More than 1000 Second World War-era museum vehicles on record

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by C. Ankerstjerne View Post
          Ad 5: I couldn't find any information on the weather, but it sounds plausible, when looking at photographs from Zitadelle.
          Recall a btl of Panthers bogging down on the southern pincer.


          Ad 7: This is somewhat more controversial, as it can't be directly proven false (the arguments presented at circumstantial).
          A combination of Husky and the Red Army offensive against the northern bulge I'd say.

          Ad 8: Again, this is more controversial.
          AD Kempf's armoured spearheads came near to intercepting the Red Army's 5th Tank Army east of Prokhorovka.
          Rauss believes they came very close to a partial victory.
          Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

          Comment


          • #6
            I think overall, it's a good article, with a lot of research put in. But so much myths have been built up over the years - from both sides - that it would be hard to separate fact from fiction.

            I think the most convincing part of the article concerns the Battle of Prokhorovka, especially with regards to the total number of tanks involved, the weather and the number of Tigers involved.

            Comment


            • #7
              tigersqn
              Good point about the Panthers.

              As mentioned, the last two points are more controversial, and I would agree with you that these issues aren't black and white.

              Ogukuo72
              It isn't that hard to find the facts, but it requires that you look into both Russian and German archives, if you want to know the losses of both sides (i.e. the only useful source for German losses is German reports, and the only useful source for Soviet losses is Russian reports).
              Panzerworld
              Preserved Military Vehicle Registry Project More than 1000 Second World War-era museum vehicles on record

              Comment


              • #8
                That seems to be what the website has done. The author has gone through the ORBAT and the losses on the German side to put the Battle of Prokhorovka in context, and say that the battle couldn't be as large as the Soviets claimed, and the German losses simply couldn't have been as bad, and that not many Tigers were involved.

                David Glantz and Jonathan House also did a fair bit of research into the Battle of Prokhorovka using both German and Russian records, and found that the battle was much smaller than Soviet propaganda had put it, and was really a series of inter-related events rather than a single battle where thousands of tanks charged one another. You can find the book at Amazon. It's called "The Battle of Kursk".

                If the figures add up, the fighting is really no larger, and indeed smaller, than many other battles, including those at the western front.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by C. Ankerstjerne View Post
                  Ad 2: Also true. The scale of Prokhorovka has been greatly inflated in post-war literature.

                  Ad 3: As such also true, but the article makes a strange notion of only four Tigers available. This is only for Prokhorovka, the grand total for Zitadelle being 147 (not including reinforcements), of which 13 were lost.
                  Mmm, ... the famous TV series, Battlefield, says that at Prokhorovka 300 German tanks met 800 Russian tanks. And one of the Russian tanks' tactic was to ram into the panzers.

                  See this part of the episode about Kursk (from Battlefield series).
                  (see from min 2:45 onwards)
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynwa3...elated&search=

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    As a rule of thumb, anything mentioned in a historical documentary should be considered false. The producers of these shows knows nothing about the subject, and they don't care. Watch them for the combat footage, and ignore everything which is said (and also don't count on the combat footage having any connection with the subject at hand).
                    Panzerworld
                    Preserved Military Vehicle Registry Project More than 1000 Second World War-era museum vehicles on record

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by galex View Post
                      Mmm, ... the famous TV series, Battlefield, says that at Prokhorovka 300 German tanks met 800 Russian tanks. And one of the Russian tanks' tactic was to ram into the panzers.

                      See this part of the episode about Kursk (from Battlefield series).
                      (see from min 2:45 onwards)
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynwa3...elated&search=
                      Unfortunately, the series is rather dated, and in any case, it got some of the facts wrong.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by C. Ankerstjerne View Post
                        As a rule of thumb, anything mentioned in a historical documentary should be considered false. The producers of these shows knows nothing about the subject, and they don't care. Watch them for the combat footage, and ignore everything which is said (and also don't count on the combat footage having any connection with the subject at hand).

                        But...it is a historical documentary, not an artistic movie... . Aren't those historical documentaries accurate ? Aren't they historical speaking correct ?
                        Battlefield series was produced by Cromwell Production. Is this English company a fraud ?
                        I have just entered into deep fog... ...someone please get me out of there .

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Aren't those historical documentaries accurate ? Aren't they historical speaking correct ?
                          No. That includes documentaries from BBC, Discovery and The History Channel as well.

                          Battlefield series was produced by Cromwell Production. Is this English company a fraud ?
                          It's not a fraud. They produce shows which aim to entertain, not educate. Likewise, Hollywood productions might also be based on historical events, but they aren't documentaries either.
                          Panzerworld
                          Preserved Military Vehicle Registry Project More than 1000 Second World War-era museum vehicles on record

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by C. Ankerstjerne View Post
                            They produce shows which aim to entertain, not educate.

                            From where do you know that ?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Because entertainment is the essential purpose of all commercial television channels, since the money is in entertainment rather than education.
                              Panzerworld
                              Preserved Military Vehicle Registry Project More than 1000 Second World War-era museum vehicles on record

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X