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  • Zitadelle

    So... yes or no ?
    28
    Yes
    21.43%
    6
    No
    78.57%
    22
    Last edited by galex; 14 Aug 07, 11:50.

  • #2
    Hmm, interesting question galex.

    I said no. Whether Hitler had stopped it or not wouldn't have made too much of a difference -- the attack was, IMO, doomed from the get-go.

    Alex

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    • #3
      For me, this was a difficult one to answer. I have read several books on this battle, and I had the feeling that if Hitler hadn't taken away those two divisions because of the Allies' invasion of Sicily, the Germans - Army Group South, may have been able to take Kursk. Their downside would have probably been that they would have been "spent," and would never recover, which was the case any way.

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      • #4
        Its a difficult one to answer but I still think it was madness to start with and madness to continue. It probably wouldnt have succeeded
        "The Eastern front is like a house of cards. If the front is broken through at one point all the rest will collapse."- General Heinz Guderian


        "Oakland Raiders: Committed to Excellence"

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        • #5
          I agree with CC, it wouldn't of mattered much even if the 2 div. had stayed and taken Kursk, they would of been beaten back later.

          The Offense should never had started, Panther tanks weren't ready, time table had been delayed too much, Russians knew they were coming and ready.
          Life is what happens to you when your busy making other plans! Lennon - www.lufttiger.com

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          • #6
            I voted no. Didn't the Russians also find out what time they were going to launch their offensive and start a counter offensive of their own right before that time. I think that really threw off the Germans to begin with. I also think the numbers weren't in the Germans favor at their point. I liked that link you provided about the myths, but I believe the Soviets were in better position to replace lost tanks and supplies than the Germans were, since the Germans had to put so much effort on the Western Front.

            "Get three coffins ready" The Man With No Name

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            • #7
              Those forces wasted would have been made better use of in the Defensive Battles to come. IMHO The Germans should have let the Red Army think Kursk was to happen then after the Red Army spent all that time, effort and resources on the Big Surprise, the Germans should have pulled back to a easier to defend position. Just a thought.
              Eternal War(gaming) Armoured Struggle Car Bob

              History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis.
              Lazarus Long

              Draw the blinds on yesterday and it's all so much scarier....
              David Bowie

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              • #8
                Zitadelle was Germany's attempt to stabilize the eastern front, the Soviets were by this time outstripping the them in both men and material at an ever increasing rate, and the Kursk salient was settled pecuriously between army group south and center.

                Had the Germans took a more defensive stance on the front(producing more AT guns, and less SP-AT for instance), they surely would have lasted longer, but you also had to remember that they couldn't hold out for ever, and without some decisive battle would eventually lose to a battle of attrition.

                Unfortanitly for the Germans Kursk was a very bad choice for such a decisive battle, as the Russians had already found out the plan, and had put huge forces in place to blunt the German assault, which thanks to Hitler was further delayed in order to commit new, untested equipment into the battle.
                Had the Germans succeeded at Kursk, they would have enveloped some 60 Soviet divisions, giving them some breathing space in which to shore up their positions. Although the fact that the Russians new of German plans doomed the operation before it even started.

                Finally to answer the thread, no, it would not have made a difference in the end, as a victory at Kursk was more or less out of German reach.
                "Kill them all, god will recognize his own."

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                • #9
                  Highly unlikely. The Soviets were simply too well dug in, with huge operational reserves. Continuing the operation would simply into the hands of the Soviets by continuing the attrition process.

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                  • #10
                    I read alot about this battle.... and I do mean alot.

                    There is one thing you have to keep in mind, the Russians were still afraid of the Germans and their ability to pull off those stunning flanking or Pincer moves that would gobble up whole armies. Not that the Germans stood much of a chance of pulling this off in this battle, but it may of happened in an extreme case if everything went their way, which was very doubtful.

                    There are a few people out there who have speculated that if the Germans would of kept pushing on that southern bulge for just a day or two more the Russians would of collapsed and the whole salient would of caved in to a head long retreat for the rear. Why? Because of the afore mentioned fear spoken of above. We will never know weather or not this would of happened, but even if it did, the victory, a major one to be sure, would of been a tactical one, not a stratigic one. It may of even delayed the end of the war for 6 months or more, but in the end it wouldnt of amounted to much more than the Wehrmacht having to over extend itself once again to defend an even longer section of front line. {Possibly making Operation Bagration an ever more destructive operation than it was. Can you imagine that?!}

                    The Russians could of and did make up their losses in men and material fairly quickly while same certaily couldnt be said for the Germans. The way i see it the Battle was a win/win for the Russians now matter how it turned out.
                    http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...200pixwide.jpg

                    Kampfgruppe - A Wargaming Clan Since 1998

                    NorbertSnyderJr.com

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
                      Highly unlikely. The Soviets were simply too well dug in, with huge operational reserves. Continuing the operation would simply into the hands of the Soviets by continuing the attrition process.
                      Actually all the Tank reserves were put into the battle by the last day and there wasnt that much in the way of infanty laying around either. "That much" is a relative term and what is not that much to the Russians may seem like a lot to other armies, but if fact most of their reserves were commited.
                      http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...200pixwide.jpg

                      Kampfgruppe - A Wargaming Clan Since 1998

                      NorbertSnyderJr.com

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                      • #12
                        No, unless it took place before mid-May.
                        Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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                        • #13
                          no
                          "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                          Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

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                          • #14
                            Absolutely not. Model was stopped cold anyway, so if Manstein continued, the Soviets could have shifted troops south and pinced off/knocked off Manstein's forces.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                              no
                              Very pithy there panther.

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