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  • Test: Most Tank Kills?

    Can you name the individual who has the most credited/confirmed tank kills in WW II (Heer or Waffen SS...no Luftwaffe)? Please give more than just a name.

  • #2
    Kurt Knispel

    He participated in Barbarossa and was sent to train on Tigers in Jan '43. He had already been credited with 12 kills as a gunner on Pz IVs.

    He was subsequently posted to 1st Companie, 503rd Pz Abteilung.

    He saw action at Kursk, Cherkassy, Vinnitsa and Kamenets-Podolski.

    The unit re-equipped with Tiger IIs and fought around Caen. Then it was back to the East Front where he was killed in an action at Wostitz.

    His final confirmed kills amount to 168 with another 30 or so unconfirmed.

    He was recommended for the Knight's Cross 4 times but was never awarded the medal, probably because he was always considered a "renegade".

    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...e7fb1d%20-
    Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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    • #3
      tigersqn, you're "dead on!" I guess this was too easy....

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Tom D View Post
        tigersqn, you're "dead on!" I guess this was too easy....
        Not so. Perhaps someone could give me details of all the confirmed kills in Normandy? As they were 'confirmed' it should be a very easy task.

        Please remember that these are CLAIMS reather than actual kills.
        Let me repeat this salient fact. In Russia all the tank kill claims were collected together and then HALVED to try and get an accuratte account of actual Russian losses.
        Perhaps an example where surper-dooper Panzer Abteilung 007 claimed 1000 kills but then settled for 500 after this reduction was applied could be found for me?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
          Kurt Knispel


          His final confirmed kills amount to 168 with another 30 or so unconfirmed.
          and just who confirmed them

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          • #6
            Originally posted by m kenny View Post
            Not so. Perhaps someone could give me details of all the confirmed kills in Normandy? As they were 'confirmed' it should be a very easy task.

            Please remember that these are CLAIMS reather than actual kills.
            Let me repeat this salient fact. In Russia all the tank kill claims were collected together and then HALVED to try and get an accuratte account of actual Russian losses.
            Perhaps an example where surper-dooper Panzer Abteilung 007 claimed 1000 kills but then settled for 500 after this reduction was applied could be found for me?
            m kenny, how about providing some back up to what you say about claims/kills, being collected then halved, etc. I am currently reading "Panzer Aces 2," and have read of Kurt Knispel about his claims (many disallowed) and his kills which were said to be confirmed. I admit that I have not seen any discussion about the confirmation process, so I do not know how it was acommplished.

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            • #7
              Confirmations

              Originally posted by redcoat View Post
              and just who confirmed them
              redcoat, who does the confirming in most armies? How is this done?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Tom D View Post
                m kenny, how about providing some back up to what you say about claims/kills, being collected then halved, etc.
                This link

                http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tankers/message/6640


                will take you back a few years when I was having the same debate. I was being told that there was a very strict German confirmation method for counting kills. The raw figures were given and then the highly scientific and verified total of actual kills was given................then one Russian poster noticed that in every case the confirmed total was exactly half the raw total!
                In 1943 the reduction was 33% and this was upped to 50% in 1944-45.
                Zetterling also mentions it in his Kursk book.

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                • #9
                  I got the info for my previous post off the AxisHistory Forum site.

                  Every list I've seen credits Kurt Knispel as #1 with anywhere from 163 to 168 kills; although admittedly this is the first time I've seen it stated that he had 168 confirmed kills.
                  Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by m kenny View Post
                    This link

                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tankers/message/6640


                    will take you back a few years when I was having the same debate. I was being told that there was a very strict German confirmation method for counting kills. The raw figures were given and then the highly scientific and verified total of actual kills was given................then one Russian poster noticed that in every case the confirmed total was exactly half the raw total!
                    In 1943 the reduction was 33% and this was upped to 50% in 1944-45.
                    Zetterling also mentions it in his Kursk book.
                    Thanks, I see where you are coming from....

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                    • #11
                      I do know this much, weather it was Tanks on the ground, Planes in the air, or Soldiers being shot by Snipers, the Germans had the strictest policies for awarding kills of all the belligerants in WWII, that much is a fact.
                      http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...200pixwide.jpg

                      Kampfgruppe - A Wargaming Clan Since 1998

                      NorbertSnyderJr.com

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KGPanzerschrecK View Post
                        I do know this much, weather it was Tanks on the ground, Planes in the air, or Soldiers being shot by Snipers, the Germans had the strictest policies for awarding kills of all the belligerants in WWII, that much is a fact.
                        Where can we find out about this 'strict' procedure?
                        If it was so good why did their own people apply a 50% reduction in their claims?
                        Perhaps you could explain how claiming an enemy tank that is a mile or two away in enemy held territory is confirmed as an actual kill and not just damaged?
                        I think you believe it to be true but have no reference to back it up but I am always on the lookout for new information.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
                          I got the info for my previous post off the AxisHistory Forum site.

                          Every list I've seen credits Kurt Knispel as #1 with anywhere from 163 to 168 kills; although admittedly this is the first time I've seen it stated that he had 168 confirmed kills.
                          from research i,have done i have to say these figures are totally acceptable

                          in fact they could be understated , if you apply the "50% rule" and these figures are the result Knispel could have achieved a higher kill rate .

                          He was recommended for the Knight's Cross 4 times but was never awarded the medal, probably because he was always considered a "renegade"

                          just another reason IMHO Knispel,s figures were probably underrated , sounds like someone didnt like his style .

                          (please note : this is just my opinion , i have no historic evidence that this would be a factor but the military dose like its poster boys to be compliant and can adjust figures to diminish the feats of those who do not seem to fit the mold)
                          did your parents have any children that lived numb nuts??

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by panzer ratten View Post

                            He was recommended for the Knight's Cross 4 times but was never awarded the medal, probably because he was always considered a "renegade"

                            Yeah, he looks a bit the renegade.
                            Attached Files
                            Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by m kenny View Post
                              Where can we find out about this 'strict' procedure?
                              If it was so good why did their own people apply a 50% reduction in their claims?
                              Perhaps you could explain how claiming an enemy tank that is a mile or two away in enemy held territory is confirmed as an actual kill and not just damaged?
                              I think you believe it to be true but have no reference to back it up but I am always on the lookout for new information.
                              Im not getting into a pissing contest with you. Everything i have ever read has told me the same thing. You read a handfull of revisionist claims and now the Germans are all Kill inflators? Sounds to me like the information your always on the lookout for should be checked to see if its correct.

                              And BTW, in certain curcumstances its easy to claim a kill from a mile or two away when a Tank goes up in flames or the crew bails and runs away.

                              As others have said here before, im sure that most of the great Tank aces of WWII, no matter what side they fought for, didnt get their credit of kills because it just couldnt be known. Especially the Germans with their excellent long range gunnery skills.
                              http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...200pixwide.jpg

                              Kampfgruppe - A Wargaming Clan Since 1998

                              NorbertSnyderJr.com

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