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  • T-34/76 Mod. 1941

    Does anyone know if the T-34/76 Mod. 1941 took part in the battle around the Kiev area, in November-December 1943 ?

  • #2
    Possible, but quite unlikely.

    Originally posted by galex View Post
    "Does anyone know if the T-34/76 Mod. 1941 took part in the battle around the Kiev area, in November-December 1943?"
    This would be very rare. The attrition rate for T-34s was extremely high indeed and survival expectancy was often measured in weeks. To last for several months was doing well and it was a miracle for one of these tanks to survive a single year in action, never mind two or three. This was especially true between 1941 and 1943.

    So, the answer is that it would not be impossible but it nevertheless remains quite unlikely.
    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

    Comment


    • #3
      I would agree w/ 3458 that it was possible. The T-34 M40 was long gone by mid 42 replaced in production by the M41 (intially designed as a pltn/coy leader vehicle), it was the mainstay of the T-34 right to Kursk. Interestingly enough, the M43 did not go into widespread production until Sep 42 and even at Kursk many of the available models would have been M41s.

      So, if you are designing a WWII scenario (ASL?) best bet would be to go with the M43 by late 1943
      The Purist

      Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by The Purist View Post
        I would agree w/ 3458 that it was possible. The T-34 M40 was long gone by mid 42 replaced in production by the M41 (intially designed as a pltn/coy leader vehicle), it was the mainstay of the T-34 right to Kursk. Interestingly enough, the M43 did not go into widespread production until Sep 42 and even at Kursk many of the available models would have been M41s.

        So, if you are designing a WWII scenario (ASL?) best bet would be to go with the M43 by late 1943
        As an additional note here, one thing that can cause confusion when discussing this subject is the 'year models' for the variations of the T-34. Some sources (including quite a few of my own books) refer to a model 1942, others designate this as merely a 'late' model 1941.

        By the time of Kursk, there would have been very, very few 1941 built model 1941's left at all, as almost all of them would have been attrited away by then. It would be close to a miracle for a T-34 to survive that long in operations. The overwhelming majority would have been model 1942's ('late' 1941's if you prefer) or early model 1943's.
        Last edited by panther3485; 24 Jul 07, 04:07.
        "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
        Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

        Comment


        • #5
          T-34/76 Model 1941 was produced with approximately 9290 specimens starting from at the beginning of 1941 until 1942.

          Ok, ... quite difficult, because I have a sd.kfz. 164 Nashorn and a T34/76 mod. 1941 and I intended to put them in a winter diorama that illustrate the battles around Kiev (December 1943), but from the very beggining I had some rezervations with that T34. I will put the T34 in another winter diorama... maybe one that illustrate the Germans' last minutes at Stalingrad, in the northern tractor factory ( 2nd of February, 1943). And the Nashorn will remain alone in the Kiev diorama.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by galex View Post
            "T-34/76 Model 1941 was produced with approximately 9290 specimens starting from at the beginning of 1941 until 1942."
            That's all very well, but it depends on which source you get your information from and whether the model 1942 is counted separately or as merely a 'late' 1941 model. To confuse the issue even further, some sources designate the very early 1943 models (produced late 1942) as model 1942's. Confusion abounds here.


            Originally posted by galex View Post
            "Ok, ... quite difficult, because I have a sd.kfz. 164 Nashorn and a T34/76 mod. 1941 and I intended to put them in a winter diorama that illustrate the battles around Kiev (December 1943), but from the very beggining I had some rezervations with that T34. I will put the T34 in another winter diorama... maybe one that illustrate the Germans' last minutes at Stalingrad, in the northern tractor factory ( 2nd of February, 1943). And the Nashorn will remain alone in the Kiev diorama."
            I think you have made the correct decision as these two don't belong together. You need a T-34 model 1943 to go with the Nashorn, or at the very earliest a model 1942 and even that would be less common (though not impossible, just somewhat unlikely).
            Last edited by panther3485; 24 Jul 07, 06:48.
            "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
            Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

            Comment


            • #7
              The Russians do not have a "model 1942" as an official name for the later production versions of the T34 M41. The archives (as presented by Glantz and Russian authors) speak of three main production models; M40, M41 and M43,...there is also an uparmoured version, produced and used almost exclusively near Leningrad but these were were fairly limited in number when compared to overall production numbers.

              "Model 42" may be a western (English) classification much like calling the French H-35 with the higher velocity 37mm the "H-38". It is incorrect, the French did not differentiate between the H-35 with different guns, nor did the Russians in regards to the the various changes with the T-34 M41.

              Likewise, calling a T-34 the T-34/76A, B or C is also incorrect terminology,...the correct terms should be T-34 M40, M41 and M43.

              For those who just had to know
              The Purist

              Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

              Comment


              • #8
                An end to the confusion would be welcome, if provable

                Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                The Russians do not have a "model 1942" as an official name for the later production versions of the T34 M41. The archives (as presented by Glantz and Russian authors) speak of three main production models; M40, M41 and M43,...there is also an uparmoured version, produced and used almost exclusively near Leningrad but these were were fairly limited in number when compared to overall production numbers.

                "Model 42" may be a western (English) classification much like calling the French H-35 with the higher velocity 37mm the "H-38". It is incorrect, the French did not differentiate between the H-35 with different guns, nor did the Russians in regards to the the various changes with the T-34 M41.

                Likewise, calling a T-34 the T-34/76A, B or C is also incorrect terminology,...the correct terms should be T-34 M40, M41 and M43.

                For those who just had to know
                What's interesting about this, though (from my understanding) is that even the Russian sources are reportedly inconsistent and this (again, from my understanding) stems from the Soviets not having had a consistent system of designation for the 76mm armed T-34 variants at that time.

                Notice I have not stated which of these systems of designation is 'correct' or 'incorrect', only that sources vary. In view of the apparent discrepancies even within Russian sources, I'm not sure it's easy to be so definite about it.

                However, if there is now a final and definitive source available, based irrefutably on Soviet records of the time, which does show a reliable and consistent means of designating at least the main sub-variants, then I'd be very pleased to see it because it would, once and for all, end the confusion. How recently did the archival information you speak of come to light, and how accurately has it been interpreted/presented? My most recent book sources are between eight and ten years old.

                A 'cleanup' of this would be most welcome, as I've always found it frustrating.

                P.S. - I've long known that the 76/A,B,C etc thing is nonsense.
                Last edited by panther3485; 24 Jul 07, 08:29.
                "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                Comment


                • #9
                  So...will this really help us or will it take us even deeper in this mystey that surrounds the T34 ? :
                  http://ww2armor.jexiste.fr/Takhn/Fil...n.htm#T34Mod40

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by galex View Post
                    So...will this really help us or will it take us even deeper in this mystey that surrounds the T34 ? :
                    http://ww2armor.jexiste.fr/Takhn/Fil...n.htm#T34Mod40
                    The second 'model 1940' shown here is designated as an early production model 1941 in most of my book sources. The one presented as a 'model 1941' is designated in some of my book sources as a late model 1941 and in others as a model 1942. The one shown as a model 1942/43 is described in most of my book sources as a model 1943. Notice the one on the left has a cupola, and most of my sources designate this as a late model 1943. The one on the right is an illustration from a Tamiya model kit box and represents a mid-production model 1943 according to most of my sources. The one shown as a model 1943 Chtz version was, according to a couple of my sources, actually produced from late 1942 and one of my books calls this a model 1942!!!!! (and it too sports an illustration from a Tamiya kit box!) And so it goes on.....
                    Last edited by panther3485; 24 Jul 07, 08:42.
                    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      But what source is to be fully trusted ? And why in this case a source should be fully trusted ?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        In the meantime....

                        Originally posted by galex View Post
                        "But what source is to be fully trusted ? And why in this case a source should be fully trusted?"
                        On this particular question (the designations for sub-types of the 76mm armed T-34) the sources are contradictory, so it's difficult to know which ones to trust.

                        For example, the books written by Steven Zaloga are generally very good, thoroughly researched and contain few errors, but even he admits that there are no totally reliable or consistent original sources for the 76mm T-34 designations used in his work (at least, there were none known to him at the time of writing). He selects designations that seem most appropriate and describes them as 'the designations I will use here'. He does not say they are 'correct' because he had found no solid basis for them from Soviet records at the time of his research.

                        On most questions relating to the technical aspects of WW2 tanks, I can determine the difference between the more trustworthy sources and the dubious ones but even references that I'd normally trust a great deal are vague on this.

                        I'll wait to see what The Purist (or anyone else) can come up with, as there may be fresh original Soviet sources that can shed more light on this matter.

                        In the meantime, I'll go with what I've got from the better quality books in my home library.
                        Last edited by panther3485; 24 Jul 07, 10:50.
                        "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                        Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                        Comment

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