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  • Shot-traps

    The rounded gunmantlet on the Panther was a big enough weakpoint that it was a viable strategy for Allied tankers to aim on its lower part and bounce a shot into the roof. The problem was solved simply by adding a small vertical portion to the lower part of the gunmantlet.

    Why didn't tank designers predict the problem with shot-traps?
    Last edited by oldngruff; 02 Dec 19, 18:56.

  • #2
    Originally posted by oldngruff View Post
    The rounded gunmantlet on the Panther was a big enough weakpoint that it was a viable strategy for Allied tankers to aim on its lower part and bounce a shot into the roof. The problem was solved simply by adding a small vertical portion to the lower part of the gunmantlet.

    Why didn't tank designers predict the problem with shot-traps?
    That trajectory makes no sense. How would hitting the bottom of the mantle deflect onto the turret top?



    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

      That trajectory makes no sense. How would hitting the bottom of the mantle deflect onto the turret top?


      Can you think of another place that a tank has a roof?
      Last edited by oldngruff; 03 Dec 19, 00:11.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

        That trajectory makes no sense. How would hitting the bottom of the mantle deflect onto the turret top?
        He didn't say turret top. He meant the roof of the hull part.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by oldngruff View Post

          Can you think of another place that a tank has a roof?
          That wasn't the question. Do you have an answer that fits the physics and ballistics?
          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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          • #6
            The world tank producers still make shot traps. They often appear on Tanks that are transported by cranking the main gun around to face the rear. The engine compartment requires a higher roof. Look into that paragon of designership called the Buford Tank a few years back.

            Pruitt
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

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            • #7
              Here is a Panther with the gunmantlet altered to fix the problemtamiya-radio-controlled-tanks-56021-panther-g-1.jpg
              Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

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              • #8
                Originally posted by oldngruff View Post
                Why didn't tank designers predict the problem with shot-traps?
                I don't know if they did not. It's possible, I suppose, that they were aware of vulnerabilities, but they had to balance protection on the one hand, and performance and ease of construction, on the other, as always. If they thought the vulnerability required a low-probability event to be exploited, maybe they accepted that.
                Michele

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  That wasn't the question. Do you have an answer that fits the physics and ballistics?
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                    That wasn't the question. Do you have an answer that fits the physics and ballistics?
                    What answer? How a shell bounced off the Panther's gunmantlet into the roof above the driver and radio-operator's positions?

                    The answer then is that this feat of gunning was considered possible enough, according to one report by U.S. tankers, to be recommended as a viable tactic against Panthers frontally. The shell would bounce off the lower part of the rounded gunmantlet and penetrate the thinner roof of the tank.

                    It must've happened enough times in combat for the Germans to modify the gunmantlet, adding a vertical "chin" to the lower part.
                    ​​

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
                      ...Here is a Panther with the gunmantlet altered to fix the problemtamiya-radio-controlled-tanks-56021-panther-g-1.jpg...
                      1/35th scale or bigger?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by III Corps View Post

                        1/35th scale or bigger?
                        I am not sure I am not a modeler and the caption did not say. But you can clearly see it is the later model Panther with the straight vertical portion of the gunmantlet on the bottom half starting just below the barrel.
                        Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

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                        • #13
                          Do you guys know of Armortek? They make 1/6 scale RC models made by metal.

                          This Panther weights 130 kg!

                          attachment.php?attachmentid=2189652.jpg

                          ​​​​​​The armour plates are realistically thick!

                          DSC00439.jpg

                          When shot in nature they look beautifully real.

                          proc_0001(1).jpg
                          Last edited by oldngruff; 04 Dec 19, 13:23.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                            That wasn't the question. Do you have an answer that fits the physics and ballistics?
                            Why don't you just admit that you misunderstood what he meant. Other than a former member from Texas, you've probably driven away more members than anyone else.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                              The world tank producers still make shot traps. They often appear on Tanks that are transported by cranking the main gun around to face the rear. The engine compartment requires a higher roof. Look into that paragon of designership called the Buford Tank a few years back.

                              Pruitt
                              I think because modern anti-tank shells doesn't bounce off surfaces the way they did in WW2 and beyond.

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