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22 June 1941- This Day In History

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  • 22 June 1941- This Day In History

    Here are the forum rules:
    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...#faq_faq_rules

    [/QUOTE]

    Thanks



    I have fixed it below and reposted.
    Last edited by Bladerunnernyc; 23 Jun 10, 08:23.

  • #2
    Don't forget the same date three years later.

    BAGRATION
    "There are only two professions in the world in which the amateur excels the professional. One, military strategy, and, two, prostitution."
    -- Maj. Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower

    (Avatar: Commodore Edwin Ward Moore, Republic of Texas Navy)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Jon Jordan View Post
      Don't forget the same date three years later.

      BAGRATION
      Or even better- 1812.

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      • #4


        www.histours.ru

        Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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        • #5


          Photo used with permission.
          Last edited by Bladerunnernyc; 23 Jun 10, 08:24.

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          • #6
            Please delete the thread as it serves no point now.

            Might as well, eh?

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            • #7
              The starting of the most horrendous conflict ever seen between two nations?

              Comment


              • #8
                The below is reprinted thanks to the courtesy of my friend Dr. David Glantz. David is retired now; however; I've had the great pleasure of hearing him lecture here in Texas, as well as at the US Army War College.

                David's award winning work on the Russo-German campaign speaks for itself. Not only did he set the standard- he IS the standard in my opinion. For decades historians in the west, especially the United States, mostly based how they interpreted events based on the largely German version.

                The below isn't a detailed history of the campaign, nor is it meant to serve as any foundation as such. It is a logical presentation regarding how one might put aside any previously held beliefs and consider an alternative. What more perfect a forum is 'Armchair General' on 22 June 2010? Especially when nobody had mentioned anything.

                The Russian Army wasn't just 'cannon fodder', nor were these men 'animals' or 'sub-human'. Germany didn't simply lose because they made mistakes initially in 1941 that are all blamed on Hitler.......there is so much behind all this, yet it would take far too long to write it all out. The simple truth is that once Hitler attacked Soviet Russia on 22 June 1941- they had very little chance of winning.

                Hardly six weeks after Hitler declared war on the United States, Germany had already lost more men in Russia compared to the United States in all of WW 2. During the siege of Leningrad, a million Russians died during the actual siege, or in the evacuations. The Red Army had over 1,000,000 killed, wounded and missing! The Germans would be stopped because of absolutely desperate Russian resistance at Oranienbaum- at Tula and in the suburbs of Moscow. The story is far too long to tell, but I'd like to share the below with you from my friend- David Glantz; part of pages 4 and 5.

                http://www.strom.clemson.edu/publica...g-war41-45.pdf

                Despite its massive scale, scope, cost, and global impact, it is indeed ironic that much of the Soviet Union’s Great Patriotic War remains obscure and imperfectly understood by Westerners and Russians alike. Worse still, this obscurity and misunderstanding has perverted the history of World War II overall by masking the Red Army’s and Soviet State’s contributions to ultimate Allied victory.

                Those in the West who understand anything at all about the Soviet-German War regard it as a mysterious and brutal four-year struggle between Europe’s most bitter political enemies and its largest and most formidable armies. During this struggle, the Wehrmacht and Red Army waged war over an incredibly wide expanse of territory, and the sheer size, physical complexity, and severe climatic conditions in the theater of war
                made the conflict appear to consist of a series of successive and seamless offensives punctuated by months of stagnant combat and periodic dramatic battles of immense scale such as the Battles of Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Belorussia, and Berlin.

                The paucity of detailed information on the war available in the English language reinforces the natural American (and Western) penchant for viewing the Soviet-German War as a mere backdrop for more dramatic and significant battles in western theaters, such as El Alamein, Salerno, Anzio, Normandy, and the Bulge.

                This distorted layman’s view of the war so prevalent in the West is understandable since most histories of the conflict have been and continue to be based largely on German sources, sources which routinely describe the war as a struggle against a faceless and formless enemy whose chief attributes were the immense size of its army and the limitlessness supply of expendable human resources. Therefore, only truly sensational events stand out from the pale mosaic of four years of combat.

                Even those who are better informed about the details of the Soviet-German War share in these common misperceptions. While they know more about the major battles that occurred during the war and have read about others such as von Manstein’s counterstroke in the Donbas and at Khar’kov, the fights in the Cherkassy Pocket and at Kamenets-Podolsk, the collapse of Army Group Center, and Soviet perfidy at the gates of Warsaw, the very terminology they use to describe these struggles is indicative of an understanding based primarily on German sources.

                More important, most laymen readers and historians alike lack sufficient knowledge and understanding of the Soviet-German War to fit it into the larger context of World War II and to understand its relative importance and regional and global significance.

                Who then is at fault for promoting this unbalanced view of the war? Certainly Western historians who wrote about the war from only the German perspective share part of the blame.

                However, they argue with considerable justification that they did so because only German sources were available to them. Ethnocentrism, a force that conditions a people to appreciate only that which they have themselves experienced, has also helped produce this unbalanced view of the war; in fact, it has done so on both sides.

                Aside from these influences, the most important factor in the creation of the existing perverted view of the war is the collective failure of Soviet historians to provide Western (and Russian) readers and scholars with a credible account of the war. Ideology, political motivation, and shibboleths born of the Cold War have combined to inhibit the work and warp the perceptions of many Soviet historians.

                While many Soviet studies of the war and wartime battles and operations are detailed, scholarly, and accurate as far as they go, they cover only what State officials permit them to cover and either skirt or ignore those facts and events considered embarrassing by the State.

                Unfortunately the most general works and those most accessible to Western audiences tend to be the most biased, the most highly politicized, and the least accurate. Until quite recently, official State organs routinely vetted even the most scholarly of these books for political and ideological reasons. Even now, 10 years after the fall of the Soviet Union, political pressure and limited archival access, prevents Russian historians from researching or revealing many events subject to censorship in the past.

                These sad realities have undercut the credibility of Soviet (Russian) historical works (fairly or unfairly), permitted German historiography and interpretation to prevail, and, coincidentally, damaged the credibility of those few Western writers who have incorporated Soviet historical materials into their accounts of the war.

                Last edited by Bladerunnernyc; 23 Jun 10, 08:27.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                  Please delete the thread as it serves no point now.

                  Might as well, eh?
                  I posted it again- with the qualifications at the top.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 45Colt View Post
                    The starting of the most horrendous conflict ever seen between two nations?

                    Vilna Falls



                    Stalin-In Moscow speaking to the Russian people; 7 November 1941



                    Molotov 22 June 1941




                    Germany declares war on USSR after first shots are already fired;

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 45Colt View Post
                      The starting of the most horrendous conflict ever seen between two nations?

                      Original German Newsreels- Long Version- the 'Drive to Estonia'



                      Ленинградская блокада

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bladerunnernyc View Post
                        I posted it again- with the qualifications at the top.
                        THE SIEGE BEGINS;

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bladerunnernyc View Post
                          I posted it again- with the qualifications at the top.
                          Glad you did.

                          I would say that Glantz's observations are very good, glad you persevered on posting that!

                          I would add that the unprecedented opening of all German archives gave us a unique ability to look into the deepest, darkest secrets of an entire nation. We didn't even get such a uncensored look into Japan's inner workings.

                          Having such a treasure-trove of information on one hand, and such a lack of information on the other hand, leads almost inevitably to the situation he describes.

                          As for politics, just look at what happened to the series on Zhukov's greatest Defeat.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                            Glad you did.

                            I would say that Glantz's observations are very good, glad you persevered on posting that!

                            I would add that the unprecedented opening of all German archives gave us a unique ability to look into the deepest, darkest secrets of an entire nation. We didn't even get such a uncensored look into Japan's inner workings.

                            Having such a treasure-trove of information on one hand, and such a lack of information on the other hand, leads almost inevitably to the situation he describes.

                            As for politics, just look at what happened to the series on Zhukov's greatest Defeat.
                            Thanks! I have had so many great discussions with David.

                            We did all the 'what if' possibilities as well, things like; What if Manstein and his army weren't sent north and instead stayed for Operation Blue, what if they used Von Rundstedt's plan of attack, who were the best generals, would Stalin have attacked in the coming years...we talking about the stand made at Tula, as well as the greatest 'unknown; story in WW 2- the Russian stand in the Oranienbaum pocket for all those years.....etc etc- GREAT TIMES!

                            David is brilliant and they were the best conversations I ever had regarding WW 2, or almost any other war.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bladerunnernyc View Post
                              Thanks! I have had so many great discussions with David.

                              We did all the 'what if' possibilities as well, things like; What if Manstein and his army weren't sent north and instead stayed for Operation Blue, what if they used Von Rundstedt's plan of attack, who were the best generals, would Stalin have attacked in the coming years...we talking about the stand made at Tula, as well as the greatest 'unknown; story in WW 2- the Russian stand in the Oranienbaum pocket for all those years.....etc etc- GREAT TIMES!

                              David is brilliant and they were the best conversations I ever had regarding WW 2, or almost any other war.

                              You are a lucky fellow to have access to a man like that.

                              IMHO, the best wargame on that front was Proud Monster from the old Command Magazine. I'm lucky enough to have the complete game as well as the extension. Ever played that one?

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