Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

MG42 v. MG34 v. US Browning cal. in combat

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • MG42 v. MG34 v. US Browning cal. in combat

    I'm not talking about reliability or barrel changes here but in terms of lethality. The MG42 fired at 1200-1500 RPM, The MG34 fired at 800-900 RPM, The US 1919 Browning 30 fired at 400-600 RPM.

    The MG34 has the fire rate most common to modern machineguns in use today.

    I have not fired any of these weapons but the drastic difference in firing rate seem to imply that their effectiveness was different in different situations and their handling had to be modified accordingly.

    Why did the Germans set the bolt on the MG42 at > 1200 RPM? It seems to be too fast and uncontrollable. How effective were the short, quick bursts? Was the 1919 too slow firing for maximum effectiveness?

  • #2
    As the names indicate the German guns were a lot newer than the Browning. Also the Browning is a medium machine gun and not a light/general purpose machine gun like the MG34/42. The MG42 had a higher rate of fire because it was being used in the defensive role/counter strike role where the higher rate of fire was beneficial. In fact the US Army putting out a training films about the MG34/42 and the fearsomeness of the high rates of fire.

    Unfortunately I was unable to find it. But here is a training film that discusses the MG34 and 42.


    Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

    "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

    What didn't kill us; didn't make us smarter.

    Comment


    • #3
      How useful are these guns in anti-aircraft mode? Like pea-shooters?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
        How useful are these guns in anti-aircraft mode? Like pea-shooters?
        Not very. A WWII variant of the Golden BB accuracy rate.
        Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

        "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

        What didn't kill us; didn't make us smarter.

        Comment


        • #5
          Having lugged an M-60 and SAW around a bit I can tell you the slower rate of fire of the Browning would be just fine.
          My worst jump story:
          My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
          As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
          No lie.

          ~
          "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
          -2 Commando Jumpmaster

          Comment


          • #6
            I guess machine gun gunnery is a balance between accuracy and the creation of the so called beaten zone.

            The MG-42 had lots of vibration due to the high rate of fire so it had considerable dispersion. This created a fairly large beaten zone. This was a zone of so many by so many square meters where you could see the puffs of rounds impacting all over the place. The beaten zone was useful because a whole enemy squad could be pinned within the beaten zone. If the enemy was caught standing, a whole bunch of guys could be hit simultaneously.

            On the other end of the spectrum, you had machine guns like the British Bren. The original Bren was so accurate it was putting too many bullets into each victim. Troops were complaining about it and demanding measures to enlarge the dispersion and create a wider beaten zone. This was implemented in later version so that gun was essentially made less accurate on purpose, the create a larger beaten zone.

            "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
            --Frederick II, King of Prussia

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
              How useful are these guns in anti-aircraft mode? Like pea-shooters?
              Most UK bombers were armed with .303 cal or 7.7mm. Not much differences than the 43/42.

              How useful? IDK.
              "Ask not what your country can do for you"

              Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

              you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

              Comment


              • #8
                Maybe.... but that job was better suited for the .50 caliber... I knew a guy that got three confirmed kills on three ME-109s' flying low level in tight formation firing an M2.

                Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                How useful are these guns in anti-aircraft mode? Like pea-shooters?
                My worst jump story:
                My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                No lie.

                ~
                "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                  How useful are these guns in anti-aircraft mode? Like pea-shooters?
                  Individually not very. If you have a lot of them per square kilometer & average trained soldiers a lot of lead can be tossed up in the path of a low flying attacker. If the operators are well trained they will create some sort of pattern that increases to odd of hitting a aircraft

                  One example would be the attack of a group of twin engine LeO 45 bombers on a German convoy in the Ardennes 11 May 1940. The bomber crews were trained to attack at extreme low altitude. What we sometimes call "Nap of the Earth" flight back in the 1980s. Losses to the bombers were over 50% & all seem to have been hit in the 30 to 60 seconds they were over the German vehical columns. With the low altitude and very short exposure time only very light anti air weapons would have been of any use. Specifically the M34 mounted on vehicals and the 20mm FLAK. The larger FLAK would be too slow traversing and firing for targets like that.

                  While many aggresive pilots would approach as close as possible to the target. The experinced knew that staying 300-400 meters above the ground kept out of range of anything but "magic bullets". One common rule for the pilots of the US Army observation aircraft was '1000 up 1000 back'. That is 1000 feet altitude and 1000 feet behind the front line kept the plane out of range of effective small arms fire. Aggresive pilots would ignore that rule, but they also expected to return with bullet holes in the plane.

                  The bottom line here is if you make a target of your self by flying low enough you approach the crossover from the million to one magic bullet to a fair chance of holes in the aircraft. If the guys with the MG are well trained the chances increase.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                    Having lugged an M-60 and SAW around a bit I can tell you the slower rate of fire of the Browning would be just fine.
                    I concur. The buzz-saw ROF of the MG-42 was mostly a waste of ammunition. Controlled 3-6 round bursts is how machine guns killed things, mostly. The BAR and the 30-cal were just as deadly as the MP-42.

                    What makes a machine gun deadly, however, first and foremost, and in big read letters: The Training of the Gunner. German gunners were great. American gunners would argue they were better, but, I'd hate to be down-range from either.

                    The US M-60, with an ROF of about 600 rounds per minute. It stole a lot of ideas from the MG-42. When the kinks were worked out, it was a great weapon.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                      I'm not talking about reliability or barrel changes here but in terms of lethality. The MG42 fired at 1200-1500 RPM, The MG34 fired at 800-900 RPM, The US 1919 Browning 30 fired at 400-600 RPM.

                      The MG34 has the fire rate most common to modern machineguns in use today.

                      I have not fired any of these weapons but the drastic difference in firing rate seem to imply that their effectiveness was different in different situations and their handling had to be modified accordingly.

                      Why did the Germans set the bolt on the MG42 at > 1200 RPM? It seems to be too fast and uncontrollable. How effective were the short, quick bursts? Was the 1919 too slow firing for maximum effectiveness?
                      Well, I dunno if this vindicates the MG42 high rate of fire ,but since the end of WWII, the gun was 'reincarnated' as the MG1 and more recently the MG3......


                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_MG_3


                      Even the M-60 is develped from the MG42

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_machine_gun

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by hardlec View Post
                        I concur. The buzz-saw ROF of the MG-42 was mostly a waste of ammunition. Controlled 3-6 round bursts is how machine guns killed things, mostly. The BAR and the 30-cal were just as deadly as the MP-42.

                        What makes a machine gun deadly, however, first and foremost, and in big read letters: The Training of the Gunner. German gunners were great. American gunners would argue they were better, but, I'd hate to be down-range from either.

                        The US M-60, with an ROF of about 600 rounds per minute. It stole a lot of ideas from the MG-42. When the kinks were worked out, it was a great weapon.
                        According to the author James Lucas, the Germans actually upped the rate of fire of the MG-42 to 2,000 rounds per minute in the final year of war time production. Apparently, this worked quite well on the Russian Front where massed charges of infantry were more prevalent.
                        "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'll agree to a point:

                          There are purposes for a high ROF, as evidenced by the Gatling-machine guns AKA Mini-guns.

                          The Russian Front was one of those places.

                          The slower ROF of the Browning was plenty good against the Banzai Charges in the Pacific.

                          What I believe they still teach machine gunners is: Fire Discipline, controlled bursts.

                          Now: I'd trust my survival to a MG-42, or a Browning, or a BAR. They're all great weapons.

                          I'd dig a hole and pull it in after me if I was downrange of a mini-gun.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Regardless of the rate of fire.... machineguns work best in pairs to give you that interlacing fire.... if you're not a believer try walking through it sometime.
                            My worst jump story:
                            My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                            As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                            No lie.

                            ~
                            "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                            -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                              How useful are these guns in anti-aircraft mode? Like pea-shooters?
                              Of the three, the MG-42 would have to be the best, not that a 30-cal had much chance. By the end, the Germans were switching from 20mm to 37mm because the 20s weren't hitting hard enough!

                              As far as reputation in combat, not only did the 42 have the most ferocious reputation among the men in the field, but it is also the one that survives today in near-copy variants.

                              A 10-Kilo version in 5.56mm would be a gun I would covet.

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X