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The Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze

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  • The Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze

    This book is frequently referred to on the forums. For those of you(like myself) whose local library does not have a copy, here it is in full online.
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/22644262/T...n-Nazi-Economy
    "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
    "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

    "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
    — Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

  • #2
    Sorry, my mistake, only a small number of pages are able to be viewed. I was looking forward to some extra reading

    EDIT: If the "tile mode" button is used, then it is possible to view it. Why can't anything be simple.
    Last edited by At ease; 15 Mar 10, 00:21.
    "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
    "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

    "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
    — Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

    Comment


    • #3
      Just pay the ten bucks and buy a copy.

      It is a shame that the only people to make money writing about WWII are the Hastings and Beevors of this world.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Gooner View Post
        Just pay the ten bucks and buy a copy.

        It is a shame that the only people to make money writing about WWII are the Hastings and Beevors of this world.
        The Amazon postage alone to Australia is $10 min.
        "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
        "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

        "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
        — Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by At ease View Post
          The Amazon postage alone to Australia is $10 min.
          What!? they don't have an Amazon.au?

          It's still worth the money.
          Go is to chess as philosophy is to double-entry bookkeeping. - Nicholaï Hel in Shibumi

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by trebuchet View Post
            It's still worth the money.
            Yes, without a doubt.

            Has anyone tried to refute Tooze's conclusions? I mean in a serious academic sense based on a thorough examination of the data, rather than simply based on histrionics?
            Last edited by The Ibis; 15 Mar 10, 10:28.

            Comment


            • #7
              Nope,... the best they manage is unsubstantiated "well, if Germany had switched to a war economy in 1939 or 1940 they would have won."

              Which only proves they are unaware of the economic realities of the Third Reich. Its similar to those who have not read van Crevald's "Supplying War" but still claiming that all the Germans needed to do was ship in more troops, planes, tanks and supplies and Rommel would have won. Or,... if Guderian had driven east in August he could have captured Moscow.
              The Purist

              Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                Nope,... the best they manage is unsubstantiated "well, if Germany had switched to a war economy in 1939 or 1940 they would have won."

                Which only proves they are unaware of the economic realities of the Third Reich. Its similar to those who have not read van Crevald's "Supplying War" but still claiming that all the Germans needed to do was ship in more troops, planes, tanks and supplies and Rommel would have won. Or,... if Guderian had driven east in August he could have captured Moscow.
                In other words, they haven't bothered to grasp the point of the book they are critiquing. Nice.

                Comment


                • #9
                  If you pop over to AHF
                  http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...?f=34&t=161189
                  you will see that our old friend Guaporense is cluttering it with a number of threads doing the dirty on Tooze.


                  SAMPLES:
                  "Tooze claims that factor 3 had marginal impact compared to factor 1 and 2. He also claims that it was impossible to greatly increase armament production in 1940 and 1941, because there wasn't much inefficiency to be corrected.
                  That's wrong........................."

                  "Makes the point that the German war economy was badly run. I don't think that many people know. At least the guy who wrote the book is an economist, instead of the historian, Tooze."


                  "Kaldor was a notable economic theorist. Once one of the world's foremost economists.
                  As an economist, Tooze is not even at the tip of Kaldor's toe. I know that because I am a student of economics. "
                  That's like comparing the knowledge of physics of an Erwin Schrödinger with a usual teacher in Yale of engineering with has a BS degree in physics.:

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by m kenny View Post
                    If you pop over to AHF
                    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...?f=34&t=161189
                    you will see that our old friend Guaporense is cluttering it with a number of threads doing the dirty on Tooze.


                    SAMPLES:
                    "Tooze claims that factor 3 had marginal impact compared to factor 1 and 2. He also claims that it was impossible to greatly increase armament production in 1940 and 1941, because there wasn't much inefficiency to be corrected.
                    That's wrong........................."

                    "Makes the point that the German war economy was badly run. I don't think that many people know. At least the guy who wrote the book is an economist, instead of the historian, Tooze."


                    "Kaldor was a notable economic theorist. Once one of the world's foremost economists.
                    As an economist, Tooze is not even at the tip of Kaldor's toe. I know that because I am a student of economics. "
                    That's like comparing the knowledge of physics of an Erwin Schrödinger with a usual teacher in Yale of engineering with has a BS degree in physics.:
                    I got two pages in before I stopped.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Ibis View Post
                      Has anyone tried to refute Tooze's conclusions? I mean in a serious academic sense based on a thorough examination of the data, rather than simply based on histrionics?
                      No, but WoD theme and conclusions were no suprise to me. I recall two professors: Kline-Albrandt and Flannigan refering to similar themes/conclusions from their research when I sat thru their lectures 1979-1982. Flannigan had a interesting story his original round of Doctorical study ran from 1937 into 1939, concerning...wait for it... the future economic viability of Cechosolvakia. "Three years of my life were wasted by Hitlers annexation. WWII was a personal matter for me." was Falnnigan's summation.

                      Where this gets really interesting is he returned to Prague in the 1950s. While there his colleagues introduced him to data from the German period. Comparison with his earlier research convinced him overall productivity in the Cezch industry stagnated or declined under nazi or German industrial management. Point here is Tooze simply summed up in vast detail what I had been hearing from these and other historians for many decades.

                      Actually it goes back as far as 1941. A recently accquired book on my desk is 'Pattern of Conquest' by Joesph Harsch. Harsch a journalist lived in Germany from late 1939 to early 1941 & published his book in April 1941. His readable text is a American eyewitness to life inside Germany for the early war years. He identifies some of the same negative trends in the nazi economic management from the PoV of someone actually living through them, or watching the German population live through them.
                      Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 15 Mar 10, 20:51.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A welcome trend has been developing in the study of history over the past 15-20 years in the move away from studying battles and campaigns and more towards the economics (along with logistics), politics and sociology of war. Simply "counting rifles" leaves so many unanswered question that they seem less and less important as more is understood about what happened behind the front or even before the war.

                        All rather refreshing and far more interesting the the same old re-hashing of which general did what when. More often than not, battles and even campaign were decided before the troops took their first steps over the start line.

                        Tooze and van Crevald have added more to the understanding of the war than many times their volumes covering the French campaign or troop movements in Barbarossa or the drive on Stalingrad.
                        Last edited by The Purist; 15 Mar 10, 21:01.
                        The Purist

                        Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by At ease View Post
                          The Amazon postage alone to Australia is $10 min.
                          Get it from Borders. I just bought Doughty's new book and I'm pretty sure it's coming from the US; no shipping fee, though.
                          Colonel Summers' widely quoted critique of US strategy in the Vietnam War is having a modest vogue...it is poor history, poor strategy, and poor Clausewitz to boot - Robet Komer, Survival, 27:2, p. 94.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                            A welcome trend has been developing in the study of history over the past 15-20 years in the move away from studying battles and campaigns and more towards the economics (along with logistics), politics and sociology of war. Simply "counting rifles" leaves so many unanswered question that they seem less and less important as more is understood about what happened behind the front or even before the war.

                            All rather refreshing and far more interesting the the same old re-hashing of which general did what when. More often than not, battles and even campaign were decided before the troops took their first steps over the start line.

                            Tooze and van Crevald have added more to the understanding of the war than many times their volumes covering the French campaign or troop movements in Barbarossa or the drive on Stalingrad.
                            I've spent the past several years studying Nazi doctrine and their regime instead of just looking at their military aspect. It's made my understanding of what the Nazis were much deeper.

                            Books on Nazi Germany or Nazi leaders read since 2007:

                            Himmler’s Crusade: The Nazi Expedition to Find the Origins of the Aryan Race
                            Christopher Hale

                            Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust
                            Richard Rhodes

                            Russia’s War: A History of the Soviet Effort: 1941-1945
                            Richard Overy

                            The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy
                            Adam Tooze

                            The Dictators: Hitler’s Germany, Stalin’s Russia
                            Richard Overy

                            When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler
                            David Glantz & Jonathan House

                            Operation Jedburgh: D-Day and America’s First Shadow War
                            Colin Beavan

                            How The Allies Won
                            Richard Overy

                            The Third Reich: A New History
                            Michael Berleigh

                            Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives
                            Alan Bullock

                            Mussolini: A New Life
                            Nicholas Farrell

                            A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II
                            Gerhard Weinberg

                            The Master Plan: Himmler’s Scholars and the Holocaust
                            Heather Pringle

                            Nazi Germany and the Jews: The Years of Persecution, 1933-1939
                            Saul Friedländer

                            Nazi Germany and the Jews: The Years of Extermination, 1939-1945
                            Saul Friedländer

                            Hitler: A Biography
                            Ian Kershaw

                            The Coming of the Third Reich
                            Richard Evans

                            The Third Reich in Power
                            Richard Evans

                            Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial
                            Richard Evans

                            Life and Death in the Third Reich
                            Peter Fritzsche

                            The Devil’s Disciples: Hitler’s Inner Circle
                            Anthony Read

                            The Deceivers: Allied Military Deception in the Second World War
                            Thaddeus Holt

                            Holocaust: A History
                            Deborah Dwork & Robert Jan van Pelt

                            The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide
                            Robert Lifton

                            Hitler’s Bandit Hunters: The SS and the Nazi Occupation of Europe
                            Philip Blood

                            Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler: The Age of Social Catastrophe
                            Robert Gellately

                            The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942
                            Christopher Browning

                            Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia 1600-1947
                            Christopher Clark
                            Go is to chess as philosophy is to double-entry bookkeeping. - Nicholaï Hel in Shibumi

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                              A welcome trend has been developing in the study of history over the past 15-20 years in the move away from studying battles and campaigns and more towards the economics (along with logistics), politics and sociology of war. Simply "counting rifles" leaves so many unanswered question that they seem less and less important as more is understood about what happened behind the front or even before the war.

                              All rather refreshing and far more interesting the the same old re-hashing of which general did what when. More often than not, battles and even campaign were decided before the troops took their first steps over the start line.
                              All true for the old crocks like yourself. But, I worry the younger lads may lose balance and fall the other way , not grasping how the tactical and operational decisions (bad ones) can throw away advantages of economics ect...

                              Comment

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