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  • Dragoon - Overloard

    Sould have Operation Dragoon preceided Overlord?

    Could it have been done in time and still had the lc's in place for Overlord? Would it have drawn off German forces from the Channel area. Would NW Europe have fallen faster?

    IMO yes to all.


    HPJ
    Last edited by Half Pint John; 06 Mar 10, 08:44.
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

  • #2
    I agree. I don't see why it couldn't have succeeded. It would have certainly drawn men away from Northern France and Italy.
    A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

    Comment


    • #3
      You have to remember something here. Overlord was the code name for the whole planed war in France. Both Dragoon and Neptune were designed under the plan.

      You had to prioritize operations. The landing on Normandy (Operation Neptune) had priority as they should have.

      Operation Dragoon was always meant to be a follow up to Neptune.

      And no I don't think they should have put Neptune at risk for not having enough LCs. Remember losses have to be replaced.

      At the same time LCs were also going to the Pacific, so you had a supply chain in replacements moving slowly.

      Comment


      • #4
        You have to remember something here. Overlord was the code name for the whole planed war in France. Both Dragoon and Neptune were designed under the plan.
        I assume you have a ref that Dragoon was a part of Overlord.

        The end of Overlord is usually given as 25 Aug 44

        Dragoon didn't even start until 15 Aug.

        The issue with lc needs for Overlord and in the PTO would have been better met IF Dragoon had gone first.

        Loss of lc was very small in Dragoon when compared to Overlord.

        Here is a good site for RN lc losses.


        http://www.naval-history.net/WW2Brit...ses4Amphib.htm




        HPJ
        Last edited by Half Pint John; 07 Mar 10, 03:24.
        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't know, but I don't see Destroyer25's point re: Italy. In June '44 the Allies have just captured Rome, about half way up the boot. There is plenty of good ground left for the defense, and better positions once you get to the Alps.

          It would seem that would significantly, if not totally offset any drawdown of forces from Italy. Though some pushed for an invasion route through Italy and the Balkans, the terrain makes that a strategic and tactical loser IMO.

          Otherwise it puts the ratzis on the horns of a dilemma. I don't see much if any of a drawdown from troops nearer the Channel given 'dolphie's intuitive belief in what the invasion route would be, Pas de Calais. At least not until significant French territory is liberated.

          At that point forming a new line, possibly close to the lines used in WW I, would be necessary. That would give Overlord an easier row to hoe.

          Regards,
          Dennis
          If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

          Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
            I assume you have a ref that Dragoon was a part of Overlord.

            The end of Overlord is usually given as 25 Aug 44

            Dragoon didn't even start until 15 Aug.

            The issue with lc needs for Overlord and in the PTO would have been better met IF Dragoon had gone first.

            HPJ
            NO!

            Dragoon was previously Anvil which was scheduled before Overlord. It didn't happen that way and got delayed BECAUSE there were not enough landing craft for a strengthened 5 dvision landing in Normandy and Anvil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Aber View Post
              NO!

              Dragoon was previously Anvil which was scheduled before Overlord. It didn't happen that way and got delayed BECAUSE there were not enough landing craft for a strengthened 5 dvision landing in Normandy and Anvil.
              Now that I will go along with because of the logic attached, yes there were ample L/C for Overlord but not enough for both! ( PLEASE, forget your pretty little books, come early 44,there WAS enough L/C, NOT enough crews!!) Lcm1.
              'By Horse by Tram'.


              I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
              " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Aber View Post
                NO!

                Dragoon was previously Anvil which was scheduled before Overlord. It didn't happen that way and got delayed BECAUSE there were not enough landing craft for a strengthened 5 dvision landing in Normandy and Anvil.
                Ok, that is correct. Was known, just as Overlord was known as Sledgehammer at one time. Your point is.......

                How many divisions landed on D-Day, 6 June.

                Seven plus attached units plus the 3 AB Divisions


                British 6th Airborne Division.[11]
                British I Corps, British 3rd Infantry Division and the British 27th Armoured Brigade.
                Canadian 3rd Infantry Division, Canadian 2nd Armoured Brigade
                British XXX Corps, British 50th Infantry Division and British 8th Armoured Brigade.[12]
                79th Armoured Division
                U.S. V Corps, U.S. 1st Infantry Division and U.S. 29th Infantry Division.[11][13]
                U.S. VII Corps, U.S. 4th Infantry Division.[13]
                U.S. 101st Airborne Division.[13]
                U.S. 82nd Airborne Division.[13][14]
                Free French SAS (Special Air Service) 4th battalion in Brittany.[15][16] (Operation Dingson, operation Samwest
                "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                Comment


                • #9
                  My take and analysis based on numerous sources from bibliographies to BR's was essentially what is being offered. Ie. to few craft and or crews even given the disparity in schedules coupled with a preference by the higher echelons to go with Overlord as the priority.

                  But it's always great to see the discourse and learn or gain new appreciations.

                  Thanks.
                  Last edited by Thunder Dome; 07 Mar 10, 11:09.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                    Ok, that is correct. Was known, just as Overlord was known as Sledgehammer at one time. Your point is.......

                    How many divisions landed on D-Day, 6 June.

                    Seven plus attached units plus the 3 AB Divisions


                    British 6th Airborne Division.[11]
                    British I Corps, British 3rd Infantry Division and the British 27th Armoured Brigade.
                    Canadian 3rd Infantry Division, Canadian 2nd Armoured Brigade
                    British XXX Corps, British 50th Infantry Division and British 8th Armoured Brigade.[12]
                    79th Armoured Division
                    U.S. V Corps, U.S. 1st Infantry Division and U.S. 29th Infantry Division.[11][13]
                    U.S. VII Corps, U.S. 4th Infantry Division.[13]
                    U.S. 101st Airborne Division.[13]
                    U.S. 82nd Airborne Division.[13][14]
                    Free French SAS (Special Air Service) 4th battalion in Brittany.[15][16] (Operation Dingson, operation Samwest
                    I think he meant there were five primary 'beachheads' or landing sites with five division HQ responsible for commanding the assualt on those. Round Up is usually refered to as a "'three division' plan as there were three primary landing sites controled by three division HQ in the various iterations of the Round Up plan. However the actual number of units, airbourne or ampibious, landed in the first day of a Round Up plan would have been close to five.
                    Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 07 Mar 10, 16:55.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                      Sould have Operation Dragoon preceided Overlord?

                      Could it have been done in time and still had the lc's in place for Overlord? Would it have drawn off German forces from the Channel area. Would NW Europe have fallen faster?

                      IMO yes to all.


                      HPJ
                      An interesting 'What If' HP, but one like so many 'What Ifs' something that we will never know!...........I know I am in the minority on these things but I find them so fruitless, particularly when the event and a huge percentage of the participants have trundled their way into History or obscurity. I leave the subject with this thought, All the so called experts with their wordy tomes, despite their opinions often varying have one thing in common with each other, none of them despite all of their knowledge are always right!!
                      Last edited by lcm1; 08 Mar 10, 06:50.
                      'By Horse by Tram'.


                      I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                      " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Thunder Dome View Post
                        My take and analysis based on numerous sources from bibliographies to BR's was essentially what is being offered. Ie. to few craft and or crews even given the disparity in schedules coupled with a preference by the higher echelons to go with Overlord as the priority.

                        But it's always great to see the discourse and learn or gain new appreciations.

                        Thanks.
                        I think I understand your point, But......

                        For Dragoon less lc were needed than for Overlord.

                        For Dragoon no more lc were needed than for Tourch and Huskey.

                        Most lc's still in Med after these two.

                        Med is not the English Channel. (NOS) Weather.

                        IF Dragoon had gone in as early as mid May 44 lc would have been available for Overlord, tow weeks later. As licm1 has stated, it wasn't the lack of boats but crews. Crews are even easier to transport than the boats.
                        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                          I think I understand your point, But......

                          For Dragoon less lc were needed than for Overlord.

                          For Dragoon no more lc were needed than for Tourch and Huskey.

                          Most lc's still in Med after these two.

                          Med is not the English Channel. (NOS) Weather.

                          IF Dragoon had gone in as early as mid May 44 lc would have been available for Overlord, tow weeks later. As licm1 has stated, it wasn't the lack of boats but crews. Crews are even easier to transport than the boats.
                          HPJ, what about the fact that the troops landed in South France would have to be supplied and possibly reinforced? Couldn't that too put a dent into a pre-Normandy landing? Or are you positing that any reinforcements could come from US forces deployed in Italy (to the possible dismay of the British)?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Ibis View Post
                            HPJ, what about the fact that the troops landed in South France would have to be supplied and possibly reinforced? Couldn't that too put a dent into a pre-Normandy landing? Or are you positing that any reinforcements could come from US forces deployed in Italy (to the possible dismay of the British)?
                            In Dragoon we got two good ports all but intact. Marseille and Touloun. LC type hulls not needed for resupply.

                            A couple of the divisions used in Dragoon did come from Italy. 3rd US INF as one example.
                            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                            you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                              In Dragoon we got two good ports all but intact. Marseille and Touloun. LC type hulls not needed for resupply.

                              A couple of the divisions used in Dragoon did come from Italy. 3rd US INF as one example.
                              I don't know how this slipped my mind. In May, the Anzio battle is still going on. Rome doesn't fall in the OTL until June 4. The US VI Corps, containing the 3, 36 and 45 divisions used in Dragoon, are still in action in Italy. Plus, until the linkup between 8th Army and VI Corps at the end of the month occurs, I can't see any way that Med shipping would be diverted from supporting the Anzio beachhead.

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