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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Unfortunately, the US equivalent crashed early in testing.

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  • G David Bock
    replied



    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...kipedia.org%2F

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  • G David Bock
    replied
    Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
    Two interesting areas where Germany had an edge were the flying wing fighter, Horten Ho229
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229



    And use of the snorkel on submarines;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_snorkel
    Restoring Germany’s Captured “Bat Wing”
    A team of conservators works to preserve the innovative Horten Ho 229 V3.

    By Rebecca Maksel
    Air & Space Magazine | Subscribe
    August 2016

    The aircraft has always intrigued aviation fans. But after a 2009 National Geographic Channel special aired, touting the Horten Ho 229 V3 flying wing’s “stealthy” characteristics and claiming it was stored in “a secret government warehouse,” Internet forums went wild.

    The “secret” warehouse was simply the National Air and Space Museum’s storage facility in Suitland, Maryland. The U.S. Army Air Forces had captured the flying wing prototype—along with hundreds of other German aircraft—near the end of World War II. In April 1945, George Patton’s Third Army found four steel-and-wood Horten prototypes; of three airframes, the V3 was nearest to completion, and was shipped to the United States. It made its way to the Smithsonian around 1952.
    ....
    https://www.airspacemag.com/history-...ing-180960066/

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  • Artyom_A
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    I could see the occasional freak penetration due to poor quality casting and / or metallurgy. .
    It was one of the issues with early IS but not the only one (also type of steel used, shape of the hull). However, already in the second half of 1944 the cast hull of IS-2 demonstrated better resistance to armor-piercing shells than hull made of rolled plates.

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  • Emtos
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

    This table only shows losses, etc., of ISU 122, 152, and SU 152 if I'm reading it correctly.
    In order: IS, KV, ISU-152, ISU-122, SU-152.

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  • Emtos
    replied
    Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
    Where is the table from? Several IS-85 were lost irreparably in February 1944 so it's not 100% accurate.
    From Yuri Pasholok.

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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by Emtos View Post
    image_85354.jpg
    Losses of IS tank were nil in winter 44 and low in spring. They can also be compared with the losses suffered by the Tiger tanks.
    This table only shows losses, etc., of ISU 122, 152, and SU 152 if I'm reading it correctly.

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  • Artyom_A
    replied
    Originally posted by Emtos View Post
    image_85354.jpg
    Losses of IS tank were nil in winter 44 and low in spring. They can also be compared with the losses suffered by the Tiger tanks.
    Where is the table from? Several IS-85 were lost irreparably in February 1944 so it's not 100% accurate.

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  • Artyom_A
    replied
    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
    The report was here: http://english.battlefield.ru/tanks/...s/19-js-2.html
    Unfortunately the page is no longer available.
    However from my post 4398838, I did quote exactly from that page:
    It's not a "report" actually. That's an English translation of Baryatinskiy brochure of 1998. Except that Baryatinkiy wrote that the tank was manufactured in March, not that the trials were made in March. Unfortunately, there is no reference to a primary source here. Worth to repeat again, more recent publication in Russian (links provided above) have far more detailed description of IS armor trials. But not a single word about this ZIS-3 trial. How could it happen, what's your opinion?

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  • Emtos
    replied
    image_85354.jpg
    Losses of IS tank were nil in winter 44 and low in spring. They can also be compared with the losses suffered by the Tiger tanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nick the Noodle
    replied
    Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
    For a start, I would like to see this "report".
    The report was here: http://english.battlefield.ru/tanks/...s/19-js-2.html
    Unfortunately the page is no longer available.
    However from my post 4398838, I did quote exactly from that page:
    In March 1944, firing tests were conducted with a 76.2 mm Gun ZiS-3 firing at an JS-2 tank from 500-600 metres. The tank's armour was penetrated from all sides of the tank. Whilst while most of the projectiles did not penetrate the armour completely, they created major splintering and fragmentation inside the turret. This explains the considerable losses of JS-85 and JS-122 tanks during the Winter-Spring of 1944.

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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
    Spalling is not a legend, it is a known phenomenon that happens with every armor more or less. What I call a legend is an alleged trial where IS-2 turret armor was ruptured by ZIS-3 ammo (while it shouldn't be according to penetration tables). Again, the only source for this trial is Baryatinskiy/Svirin, there is no reference, more recent authors like Zheltov, Pavlov, Pasholok etc didn't write a word about this trial, although they provide a detailed description of trials of IS armor resistance to German guns, e.g. see:
    https://warspot.ru/12831-malaya-mode...bolshogo-tanka
    http://zhurnalko.net/=weapon/tankoma...ecial-tanki-is
    That makes me a little skeptical.
    I could see the occasional freak penetration due to poor quality casting and / or metallurgy. For example if you had a casting that had a void in it, or had crystalized with large crystal structure (there are a number of reasons that could happen) you could end up with armor that is very poor quality in a particular spot on the casting that when hit results in a penetration.

    With castings, a good part of the spalling effect is incumbent on how rough the casting itself is. Even going over the surface of a casting with a grinder and smoothing it will reduce spalling significantly.

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  • Artyom_A
    replied
    Spalling is not a legend, it is a known phenomenon that happens with every armor more or less. What I call a legend is an alleged trial where IS-2 turret armor was ruptured by ZIS-3 ammo (while it shouldn't be according to penetration tables). Again, the only source for this trial is Baryatinskiy/Svirin, there is no reference, more recent authors like Zheltov, Pavlov, Pasholok etc didn't write a word about this trial, although they provide a detailed description of trials of IS armor resistance to German guns, e.g. see:
    https://warspot.ru/12831-malaya-mode...bolshogo-tanka
    http://zhurnalko.net/=weapon/tankoma...ecial-tanki-is
    That makes me a little skeptical.

    Leave a comment:


  • R.N. Armstrong
    replied
    Dmititriy Loza served as an instructor at the Frunze Academy after the war. Both his books, "Commanding the Red Army's Sherman Tanks" and "Fighting for the Soviet Motherland" are credible and insightful recollections from the Eastern Front. He makes this observation, "From the moment they became aware of the situation, Smersh personnel busied themselves in the investigation. Coming rapidly to the conclusion that the spalling was evidence of sabotage in the factory production line, they filled their counterintelligence communication channels with messages to higher headquarters."

    And now it is "an urban legend"?

    I like the credible and insightful veteran's account who was in the combat action, not seven decades later.
    Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 17 Sep 20, 06:14.

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  • Artyom_A
    replied
    Regarding spalling: again, it was a normal phenomenon. You shouldn't see it like happening at every impact irrespective of the type and caliber of projectile and impact velocity. There was a certain threshold of impact velocity when the inner side of the armor started to rupture and large-scale spalling occurred. This penetration diagram for the IS-2 tanks relates to this threshold (PTP limit):
    http://zhurnalko.net/images/9/0/909b...a/page0058.jpg
    Below this limit small-scale fracturing of the armor could happen though. There were also welding seams which tended to broke down more easily from close impact than normal armor. I suspect, there were also other parameters like the number, size and velocity of the splinters, but I don't remember somebody analyzing them.
    Last edited by Artyom_A; 17 Sep 20, 07:13.

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